Using a readied action to bypass conditions

[corncob]

Yes it works.
And "fixing" it will be more trouble than it is worth.

What's the trouble with this?

When you ready an action, you end your turn as though you had delayed, except that you don't end sustained effects that you've already sustained this turn.

The net result is that Ready works the way everyone thinks it does at first blush, and really cuts down on timing shenanigans. It still doesn't prevent double-dipping on buffs, but that can't be avoided.

 

[N0Man]

Consider a few standard readied actions.

1. "I ready an action to charge the first enemy I see within my charge range."

2. "I ready an action to use Rain of blows when the warlord says "go.""

3. "I ready an action to use rain of blows after the warlord makes his attack."

All of these are pretty standard readied actions. (And if anyone who doesn't like #2, it can easily be reformulated into #3, with a little more table talk between players). In fact, any rule that does not allow #1 or #3 would be a bad rule since those are both readied actions that should certainly be allowed.

I agree, I think all 3 of these are perfectly legal. I believe that the mention of it being an Immediate Reaction are more to give a rule on the order of how opposing actions are resolved. From what is said earlier in the description, I don't think is intended to restrict triggers to only being an enemy action.

But, here's the catch. Either of those clearly allowable readied actions can be used to bypass certain conditions.

For instance, I am blinded, save ends. I ready an action to charge the first monster I see within charge range. At the end of my turn, I make a save. If I don't make it, I lose my action

I disagree with this interpretation, an would definitely rule against it. I think that it is intended that Readying an Action would treat temporary effects identically as the Delay. I would rule that the save does not happen occur until the end of the turn where you actually complete your turn (either at the end of resolving the readied action or the end of your next turn, if it comes around without using the readied action.

I will concede that they should have been more clear in the rules here.

...(unless the cleric, warlord or paladin gives me a save out of turn). If I do make it and I am now able to see an enemy within charge range, the ready goes off.

Actually, I think this is completely legal. I see no problem with readying an action in the hope that another character might be able to cure the condition.

Sure, it means you are declaring an action that isn't currently possible, and can only be completed under certain conditions (an ally cures you of your condition), however, delaying an action that isn't currently possible until a later trigger that would allow your action to become possible is the exact way that most readied action work anyway.

Likewise, I could ready an action to attack when the warlord says go or when the warlord attacks when I am blinded or slowed, save ends. The save would occur before the end of my turn, so, when the warlord says go (or attacks), there would be at least a 55% chance that I would be able to act, unimpeded by the condition.

Back to earlier, I don't think your turn has ended yet. Once your delayed action completes, then your turn is completely over and negative conditions are evaluated.

 

[Lauberfen]

With such a clear intention in the rules that you can't bypass conditions (such as the extensive wording of delay to that effect), my group play that you also can't use ready to bypass conditions in the same way.

I think the intention is clear, but it does take a house rule to bring the rules in line.

FWIW (not much), has anyone asked CS about this?

 

[tiornys]

With such a clear intention in the rules that you can't bypass conditions (such as the extensive wording of delay to that effect), my group play that you also can't use ready to bypass conditions in the same way.

I think the intention is clear, but it does take a house rule to bring the rules in line.

FWIW (not much), has anyone asked CS about this?

I don't agree. Readying an action carries two costs beyond those of delaying. First, you can only ready a single action, whereas delaying allows you to take a full turns worth of actions. And second, executing a readied action costs you your immediate action for the turn. IMO, the loss in action economy is sufficient compensation for the chance to act after conditions have cleared.

t~

 

[N0Man]

I don't agree. Readying an action carries two costs beyond those of delaying. First, you can only ready a single action, whereas delaying allows you to take a full turns worth of actions...

That's not really true. Readying an action is a standard action, so you can still perform your move and minor actions and then ready an action. This gives the advantage of essentially being able to take half of your turn now, and half of your turn at a more advantageous time.

I think that the additional versatility outweighs any disadvantage here.

 

[tiornys]

That's not really true. Readying an action is a standard action, so you can still perform your move and minor actions and then ready an action. This gives the advantage of essentially being able to take half of your turn now, and half of your turn at a more advantageous time.

I think that the additional versatility outweighs any disadvantage here.

You can only gain a single unhindered action though, whereas if you could Delay past conditions you would gain multiple unhindered actions.

t~

 

[bganon]

Actually, I think that's already possible. Just delay forever, and you never make saves. Of course, you also never get to act. I guess you can look at it as putting all your concentration into resisting whatever on-a-failed-save effect you're afflicted with.

Yep, by RAW you can delay long enough to lose your turn, which means you never get to the "end harmful effects after you act" step. So, yeah, you can avoid that nasty "petrified on failed save"... but by standing around doing nothing you risk getting killed in some nastier way. Petrification isn't really that hard to reverse! Is there some nastier condition you can avoid this way? I'm not remembering anything off the top of my head.

I suppose if this ever came up in a real game, I might rule that a player could only delay until the end of an encounter/5 minutes. But it's hard for me to imagine a player choosing to sit out an entire fight rather than take a roll with decent odds for total recovery.

 

[N0Man]

Yep, by RAW you can delay long enough to lose your turn, which means you never get to the "end harmful effects after you act" step. So, yeah, you can avoid that nasty "petrified on failed save"... but by standing around doing nothing you risk getting killed in some nastier way. Petrification isn't really that hard to reverse! Is there some nastier condition you can avoid this way? I'm not remembering anything off the top of my head.

I suppose if this ever came up in a real game, I might rule that a player could only delay until the end of an encounter/5 minutes. But it's hard for me to imagine a player choosing to sit out an entire fight rather than take a roll with decent odds for total recovery.

Hmm, I've never seen this come up but it does look to be accurate. There are probably only a small number of effects that one might prefer to delay than to chance a saving throw on. It does sound kind of cheesey, but at the same time, I can actually imagine that working in a story. Your character can be completely incapacitated as he struggles against the petrification process.

Technically speaking, a DC 15 Heal check from another party member can then be used in order to grant an immediate saving throw. My understanding is that the effects that cause bad things to happen to you when you fail your Saving Throw don't occur when it's a bonus saving throw granted to you.

It's silly, but RAW seems to allow for a guy to perpetually delay until a party member makes a DC 15 Heal check.

 

[Legildur]

I can't remember exactly, but doesn't 'your turn' comprise 3 components? Namely 'start of your turn', 'your actions', 'end of your turn'.

'start' being where you take ongoing damage, regenerations, benefits from other ongoing effects etc.

'end' being where you make saving throws etc.

'your actions' being where you make decisions and take actions.

So wouldn't 'readying an action' mean the end of 'your actions' and then moving into the 'end' phase?

Wouldn't delaying also be resolved the same way? Otherwise 6 seconds could be an awfully long time.

 

[N0Man]

I can't remember exactly, but doesn't 'your turn' comprise 3 components? Namely 'start of your turn', 'your actions', 'end of your turn'.

'start' being where you take ongoing damage, regenerations, benefits from other ongoing effects etc.

'end' being where you make saving throws etc.

'your actions' being where you make decisions and take actions.

So wouldn't 'readying an action' mean the end of 'your actions' and then moving into the 'end' phase?

Wouldn't delaying also be resolved the same way? Otherwise 6 seconds could be an awfully long time.

Well, readying an action is kind of the tricky part here. It doesn't specify when your saving throw occurs if you ready an action. I am leaning towards it acting like a delay in that regard, but I suppose I can see another interpretation as well.

However, delaying is not an action. More accurately, it's a "No Action". The following things happen:

1) Normal "Start of Turn"
2) Lose beneficial effects that normally would last until the end of your turn. (Note, you do NOT lose harmful effects yet that normally are lost at this point also).
3) End any effects or powers that require an action to sustain them this turn.
4) Wait until you enter initiative again.
5) Perform your Minor, Move, and Standard action as normal.
6) End Harmful effects that last until then end of your turn.

And the 6 seconds of a round is a pretty big abstraction. I avoid getting hung up on it being a literal 6 seconds. I tend to think of it as elastic, and *generally* about 6 seconds. Otherwise you could come into some impossible situations.

Think about this in a 6 second combat round: 1,000 characters are all lined up 12 "squares" apart, and all have a speed of 6. On one end of this line, one of the characters is holding a bomb that will explode in 10 seconds, and he is first in initiative. Everyone in the line delays until the person with the bomb takes his turn, which is composed of a move, trading his standard action for another move, and then hands the next person in line the bomb. Now the entire process repeats with everyone delaying until they are handed the bomb, until it passes through the hands of every single person.

Now, you have just a single combat round, with countless numbers of delays, and a bomb that is passed through 1,000 people x 12 squares each x 5 feet per square = 60,000 feet in 6 seconds, or 10,000 feet per second.

This means that the average speed of everyone involved was 6,800 miles per hour!

So yeah, don't get too hung up on 6 seconds of combat per round. ;-)