Using a Staff with Use Magic Device

[jgsugden]

The UMD skill cannot emulate a caster level. The only place caster level is even mentioned in the skill's description is as part of the DC for activating a scroll.

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.

If you emulate the ability of spellcasters to use a staff, you determine the class level as part of the emulation. The class level is used to calculate the caster level for spellcasters (caster level = class level for wizards, cleric, druids, etc ...).

With regards to why I urge DMs to not allow abusive uses of feats in games that I do not play in: PCs that 'get away' with abuses of the rules tend to brag about it on the boards. Other players see it and try to use these abuses in their games. The more people that get away with using it, the more people talk about it. If enough people say they get away with it, a player in my game may feel 'cheated' if I deny his PC an abusive use of an ability.

 

[Amal Shukup]

The UMD 'function' of emulating a particular Ability Score or Caster Level is only relevant to Spell Completion Items, such as scrolls. Note, these 'emulated' abililities only determine whether the Spell can be 'completed' or not. The specific ability or CL emulated has no impact on the DC or the effect of the spell in question. All of that is determined by the creator of the scroll and the mechanics of storing a spell in that fashion.

Spell Trigger Items are another kettle of fish entirely, IMHO.

A particular Ability Score or Caster level does not determine whether a Spell can be 'triggered' or not. In most cases it has no impact of any sort. The only criteria for 'triggering' is the presence of the spell in the character's Spell Lists.

In the special case of Staffs, a high CL or Ability Score CAN provide additional power that the staff draws upon to enhance the spell's effects or DCs. I do not think this can be 'emulated' - the additional power is either there or it isn't.

Note also that high CL or Ability merely modifies the DC of the spell or the spell's effects if the caster level is higher than that of the staff's (Staff of Evocation = CL13).

A Rogue (or anybody else) with a 12 Int 'Triggering' a Fireball from a Staff of Evocation would need to make a UMD check vs DC 20 (as with a Wand) to get the staff to work. His CL would be 13 (the minimum for the staff) and his INT mod to the DC would be +1. If he had an Int of 8, the mod would be -1. In neither situation does his own CL (0) or his Int Mod affect whether he succesfully uses the Staff.

Of course the staff is more potent in the hands of a 20th level Wizard with a 30 Int. More power for the staff to draw on.

Now. The INTERESTING question is whether a 20th Level Cleric would get to use their CL to determine the staff's effects... Is 'power' simply 'power' or does one wish to make a distinction between Divine and Arcane Power in this context? What about Mystic Theurges?

I'm tempted to say power is power...

A'Mal

 

[James McMurray]

If you emulate the ability of spellcasters to use a staff, you determine the class level as part of the emulation. The class level is used to calculate the caster level for spellcasters (caster level = class level for wizards, cleric, druids, etc ...).

Can you point to the part of the UMD skill that states this? The only thing I see for activating a staff is a flat DC 20 check to see if you succeed. It doesn't say anything about emulating caster level or ability scores.

 

[James McMurray]

I'm tempted to say power is power...

And I say that clerical power is different than wizardly power different sources and different methods of accessing that source). But each interpretation is equally valid under the current ruleset.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm tempted to say power is power...

I'd say that the character activating the staff can choose how he activates it from the possible classes. For a staff of fire, I'd let the character activate as a sorcerer (with Cha modifiing the DC) or as a wizard (with Int modifing the DC).

 

[jgsugden]

Can you point to the part of the UMD skill that states this? The only thing I see for activating a staff is a flat DC 20 check to see if you succeed. It doesn't say anything about emulating caster level or ability scores.

I did point to the section. People that use this argument consider the ability to use a staff to be a class feature of being a spellcaster. When you emulate the class ability, including emulating the character level which is the measure of caster level.

 

[James McMurray]

Well, I guess it takes all kinds.

 

[Amal Shukup]

I did point to the section. People that use this argument consider the ability to use a staff to be a class feature of being a spellcaster. When you emulate the class ability, including emulating the character level which is the measure of caster level.

Seems like House Rule territory to me. Staffs aren't any sort of 'class feature', they are Spell Trigger Items and the rules for activating such items are clearly stated in the rules. I see no reasonable way to allow someone with UMD to emulate either CL or Stat when 'Triggering' a Staff.

I'm no longer tempted to equate Divine and Arcane power level for these purposes: I'd rule that a Cleric using UMD to activate a Staff of Evocation would need to make DC 20 on his UMD check, and he would be casting as a 0 level Wizard/Sorceror (the staff uses its level instead) and use the highest appropriate Stat (Int or Cha).

In cases where a PC actually has levels in multiple classes with access to the spell, I'd rule that the highest Caster Level and associated Stat are used automatically.

That also avoids situations such as the 3rd level sorceror/5th level Wizard who just happens to have a 30 Cha (from buffing, items etc) at the moment from opting to use the lower level to trigger with. Silly.

It also avoids the 1st level Wizard/19th level Rogue (insted of Triggering the spell normally as a wizard) 'opting' to use his maxed out UMD to 'emulate' a 20th level sorceror with a 26 Cha...

No Opting. Play it as it lays...

A'mal

 

[UltimaGabe]

I brought this up to my DM, and he said that he'd rule it would be cast exactly as if I were casting it, and it were on my spell list. So I'd use my Wisdom bonus for casting a Fireball or whatever.

Oh, and in case you're all wondering, I'm playing an Arcane Disciple- a Cleric variant from the spellcasting issue of Dragon, that has Use Magic Device as a class skill. I've always got it maxed out, and although I really haven't used it too many times (I've cast a couple scrolls with it, used a wand once, blindly activated a ring of Acid Splash), it's a really neat skill, and it fits my character concept really well. So I like it. You have to have a million ranks in it to really be able to do anything, though. None of the DCs are less than 20, and failing by several can result in dire consequences. I don't use it too often unless I'm sure I can do it.