Using Detect Evil AKA Another Paladin Thread!

[Olaf the Stout]

I know that we've had paladin thread after paladin thread lately but I have another question about them. When paladins use their detect evil spell-like ability is the person that they are detecting on able to notice that they are being checked. The description for spell-like abilities in the core rulebooks states that no verbal, somatic or material components are needed, nor is a focus item. It is just done mentally.

I have a paladin in my group at the moment who went around to the entire crew of the ship detecting evil. While no-one was actually evil I could see that this could be a problem later on in the game if he keeps doing it to anyone and everyone.

From what I can see in the core rules as written though for him to use the ability just requires him to basically look at a general area for 1 round (or 6 seconds) to see if there is any evil in the area. If that is the case then I imagine that it would be very easy for him to do without anyone noticing. In the example that I gave above I ruled that he was able to try and detect evil without anyone wondering what he was doing.

While detecting that someone is evil is very different to actually proving that they have done something wrong I can still see that it may cause problems in the future.

So does anyone have any thoughts on the issue?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Crothian]

Its a little more then just looking...I might call it staring or looking in a contrated way. But really unless you know that the person is a Paladin there really is no way to know that person id Detecting Evil.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

When paladins use their detect evil spell-like ability is the person that they are detecting on able to notice that they are being checked.

I see no reason why they would. I also don't see how it could "be a problem later on," but then I'm not one of those DMs who dislikes detect spells in general.

You might want to consider allowing a Sense Motive check (DC 20) for others to notice that the paladin seems to be "focusing his attention" or something like that, though, since use of the ability does require concentration.

 

[jgbrowning]

While detecting that someone is evil is very different to actually proving that they have done something wrong

One can be evil without doing evil. How does one do that?

joe b.

 

[Satori]

This is a House Rule, so don't crawl down my throat with RAW.

I ran into this problem as well...similar to the rogue that checks every square for traps...and takes 20!

It seriously slows down gameplay and creates a "Laggy Scrabble Player" feel for the other members.

To deal with this, I created a houserule that worked pretty well. Basically, Paladins were to Celestials what Sorcerers are to Dragons and Warlocks are to Demons...you don't get Holy Power without a little bit of Celestial Hanky Panky going on (Doesn't that sound fun?). As such, all Paladins really were Holy Warriors with supernatural abilities not found in normal people.

With this in mind, I created an Evil distinction that separated "Sheep Herding Stock Trading Evil" from "Vile Baby Eating Evil". To find a trace of "Lesser" evil, a Paladin needed to go through a minute long ritual on a helpless individual...similar to minor Exorcism rites and such. This was usually done during an interrogation or as "Spiritual Cleansing".

Sounds pretty harsh and restrictive, right? "Good job, DM! You just ruined a kewl Pally Power! I hate U!!1!"

Not really. To compensate, I gave all Paladins a "Spider Sense" that detected "Vile" evil within a certain radius dependent on level. It was constantly on and didn't require activation or concentration at all...the Paladin is enjoying a nice dinner at a Tavern when BAM the stench of evil hits him like a brick from the Barmaid.

This made it a little more flavorful and seemed to limit unnecessary abuse, as one method was automatic and another was needlessly time consuming.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Not so long ago, when my 3rd Ed. DM's Hat was relatively new, one of my players whose character had a detect evil ability (not a paladin I should say), did the exact same thing on board a ship because he was worried about spies for the BBEG.

I decided, out of a crew of 30 or so, that one of them just happened to be neutral evil (I felt the chances were pretty good for that) and after a bit of searching, the player found this commoner NPC - and proceded to follow him around the whole trip. It was a total waste of time since the NPC was just a deckhand (who, according to his crewmates if asked, was a complete and utter jerk).

My point is, whenever the player started to scrutinize everyone in sight, all the time, I started to throw random evil NPC's around to play the role of "ghosts on the radar." I am very fortunate that the player is a fantastic gamer, caught on quickly, and toned down the detecting - only using it when it was very important to his character.

Of course, your player is a Paladin and so all those obligitory warning sirens go off:
"Oh, the Paladin can't take passage on this ship because the cabinboy is evil!"
"A Paladin can't just smite and slay every evil person he sees because that's vigilantism and totally unlawful!"
"A Paladin can't even walk around detecting evil all the time since that is an unlawful invasion of people's privacy"
"A Paladin is not a reactionary force against evil, he is a proactive force that has to take it head on!"

And all the other usual suspects that inevitably pop up.

So my advice, humble as it may be, is just make sure you and your player talk about what it means to constantly use detect evil, where you draw the line on "associating with evil creatures" and what leeway the paladin has when he finally finds someone who "pings."

Also, there is an article in Dragon Magazine #323 that details a great number of variants for the Paladin's detect evil ability - including: obvious markers for when it is active (brightly glowing eyes for example), and even changing the ability so that it doesn't detect evil so much as it detects guilt, attitude, hersey, and violence.

Hope this helps more than it hinders the "Paladin issue"

J from Three Haligonians

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Well shoot, a double-post.

J from Three Haligonians

 

[Errant]

Satori - very nice house rule, thinking hard about stealing that.

I've always dealt with Detect Evil as if the concentration means that the paladin (or whoever) is staring hard at the target/target area for the duration of his concentration. I'm always careful to enforce the time taken for accurate detection (remember it takes 3 rounds to pin-point the exact location and strength of evil auras). I usually describe the aura as anything from "you can tell he's not a nice person" all the way to "the evil of his soul sends dark pain washing over your mind".

I think I'll definitely start using a DC 20 Sense Motive roll for observers to realise the paladin is using a supernatural power, thanks Peter.

 

[WayneLigon]

While no-one was actually evil I could see that this could be a problem later on in the game if he keeps doing it to anyone and everyone.

Probably need to start thinking about it, because he's probably going to do just that. Just look at the description of the Detect Evil spell carefully and make sure you keep note of the area of effect, that thing about it taking three rounds to poinpoint an evil person, etc.

Some people go with restricting the ability (such as having it only work on evil Outsiders, or people who are actively engaged in evil intent, or just clerics of evil gods, etc), but I generally disagree. Another thing you need to do right now is decide what that Paladin's order is like, what their Code is like, and how they react to certain common scenarios you've seen discussed in various Paladin threads.

These include:
The infamous 'kobold baby' problem.
What do you do with someone who detects as Evil?

 

[shilsen]

From what I can see in the core rules as written though for him to use the ability just requires him to basically look at a general area for 1 round (or 6 seconds) to see if there is any evil in the area. If that is the case then I imagine that it would be very easy for him to do without anyone noticing. In the example that I gave above I ruled that he was able to try and detect evil without anyone wondering what he was doing.

You're correct. People who know that the character is a paladin and know about the detect evil ability and how it functions may work out what he is doing, but most people won't.

While detecting that someone is evil is very different to actually proving that they have done something wrong I can still see that it may cause problems in the future.

Why do you think it may cause problems in the future? Detect evil as written is much less useful for getting valid information than many people think. For example, consider the issue of an aura's strength. A Ftr10 chaotic evil mass murderer detects as faintly evil. A 6 HD undead of any alignment detects as moderately evil. And a lawful neutral Clr5 of a LE deity detects as strongly evil (or overwhelming evil at Clr11). So detect evil can actually be dead wrong in detecting someone's alignment.

Plus there are a large number of magical ways to fool detect evil. Undetectable Alignment, for example, lasts 24 hrs and is only a 1st/2nd lvl.

Lastly, a significant number of people are evil, so a paladin using detect evil in any social setting will pick up a number of auras. Can he smite them all or haul them off to jail or follow them all around to see what they're doing? Nope. Detect evil as written leads to only one thing for paladins - lots and lots of cynicism