Using Detect Evil/Good
- Thread starter Thornir Alekeg
- Start date
Kamikaze Midget said:
Actually, the wording is pretty clear - 3.5 PHB, pg 30:
Combine the wording with the example, and it's clear that you can have neutral clerics of most good and evil gods, just not the neutral good and neutral evil ones. Lawful Neutral cleric of Heironeus (or Hextor)? That's fine. Neutral cleric of Pelor would be a no-go.
hmmm
i'd cast detect evil, then wait for that person to commit evil. if he's an npc and not dangerous, knock him upside the head and deliver him to the local constable. if he's dangerous and attacks, kill, then explain to the local constable. if he's a monster, make darn sure he's up to no good and then thump.
a good example of this is in baldur's gate II. when you travel to a town out in the middle of no-where searching out some evil-goings on, you run across a bunch of gnolls and ogres. the gnolls and ogres are actually innocent, but the townspeople are convinced their problems stem from the ogres and gnolls.
now, what i did was help the ogres make a deal with the villagers, protection from other ogres and gnolls in exchange for goods and services. then i found out that a nasty demon-type was the cause of all their problems, so i cleaned out the nasty-types and there-you-go. oh, the local were-wolf was also innocent and helped us out.
so, don't go assuming on looks alone. you have to wait for actions as well.
i'd cast detect evil, then wait for that person to commit evil. if he's an npc and not dangerous, knock him upside the head and deliver him to the local constable. if he's dangerous and attacks, kill, then explain to the local constable. if he's a monster, make darn sure he's up to no good and then thump.
a good example of this is in baldur's gate II. when you travel to a town out in the middle of no-where searching out some evil-goings on, you run across a bunch of gnolls and ogres. the gnolls and ogres are actually innocent, but the townspeople are convinced their problems stem from the ogres and gnolls.
now, what i did was help the ogres make a deal with the villagers, protection from other ogres and gnolls in exchange for goods and services. then i found out that a nasty demon-type was the cause of all their problems, so i cleaned out the nasty-types and there-you-go. oh, the local were-wolf was also innocent and helped us out.
so, don't go assuming on looks alone. you have to wait for actions as well.
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Ridley's Cohort
First Post
My experience with playing a paladin and using Detect Evil is that it is a very minor tool. The mere fact the target shows up as evil alone is not sufficient reason to kill them. Nor is it only evil beings that are causing all the mischief in the world. Furthermore respect for laws requires me to show a modicum of deference to authority even if I suspect evil tendencies or activities of that person.
It is rare for Detect Evil to give me any information I do not already know by other means or could not make an educated guess from available information.
It is rare for Detect Evil to give me any information I do not already know by other means or could not make an educated guess from available information.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
I run Detect Evil as written: it detects any creature with an evil alignment.
And, do you know what? I never had any problems with out of control "paladins" smiting everything they detected. Why not? Because I ran the spell as written and I ran alignment distributions as written.
Humans are usually neutral. Roughly equal proportions are good and evil. So, on a rough estimate, in any given area somewhere from 10-60% of the population has an evil alignment. (In Greyhawk, the Duchy of Urnst would probably be around the 20% level and the bandit kingdoms would be topping 70%). These people are evil for a variety of reasons. Some of them are murderers, some of them are thieves (of the non-Hollywood "I only steal from those who can afford it and give the proceeds to the poor" variety), some of them would sell out their own mother to the forces of darkness in return for power (and some of those actually had a chance to do so). Others are willing to use "questionable" means in pursuit of causes they believe in (the return of the Suel Imperium, the expansion of the Theocracy of the Pale, rooting out heresy and cults, or even fighting Iuz (the story of Arthos's journey to the dark side in Warcraft III rather convincingly focusses on his obsession with defeating the undead and their demons)). And still others beat their wives, or cheat their customers. Then there are those who act perfectly according to the law but use zoning restrictions to shut down soup kitchens because giving the destitute free food cust into the profits of their bakery. And those who lionize villainy in order to gain fame and fortune ("it's what the market wants.") Not all such people deserve death. And even if they did, it wouldn't be practical to kill 20% of the population.
In my estimation, the reason that Detect Evil comes up as a problem is because DMs often use the "only real EVIL" shows up method. If only death cultists and demons radiate evil then paladins OUGHT to go around smiting everyone who radiates evil. After all, they're either a death cultist or a demon. Adopting that method of "dealing with the problem" is one of the things that creates the problem.
Another thing that creates the problem is DMs not using the D&D distribution of evil (which I think is realistic). If only the villains are evil then detecting evil is a good way to find the villain. (Add lingering 2eitus since that edition used a "immediate evil intent" test that amounts to much the same thing as "detect villain").
Finally, I would think that using the 3e/3.5e Detect Evil as written would have a self-correcting mechanism to the Detect Evil/Detect Villain confusion. A character radiating faint evil could be a acolyte of an evil priesthood, a veteran mercenary (5th level), or a very very weak demon. A character radiating moderate evil could be an initiate into the mysteries of a vile cult, a weak demon or undead... or an archmage or master assassin or polymorphed adult dragon. And when you get to strong evil, it could be anything from a mid level evil priest or demon to an epic level fighter or great wyrm dragon. The weak and moderate evil levels cast the net too wide for detect&smite--in any given bar, there are probably a half dozen evil men and women and they so far outnumber the cultists and demons that its like searching for a needle in a haystack. The moderate auras include a lot of powerful officials, successful adventurers, and wealthy merchants (mid-high level evil characters with NPC or PC classes) as well as a few demons, devils and cultists. Attacking them runs a lot of risks of biting off more than the paladin can chew (either politically in the merchant/official side of the equation or in combat if the evil character is a non-cleric evil adventurer) . At the strong level of evil and higher, the paladin can be pretty sure they're bad guys but unless he actually knows who they are, he risks attacking the disguised Lord Robilar the epic level fighter or Infernus the polymorphed Great Red Wyrm when he though he was tackling Jose Dimurdero, 8th level leader of a small death cult. All it takes is one mistake to snuff out a paladin who's detecting and smiting at this level. (Of course, at this level, there's another matter: Rings of Mind Shielding, Undetectable Alignment, etc are ridiculously easy for the kind of people who radiate strong evil to get their hands on--anyone who thinks he needs to hide probably won't let an evil aura give him away).
If Detect Evil=detect villain/license to smite in your games, it's likely that you're either running it as either detecting only [Evil] creatures or that the only evil npcs in your campaign world are the villains. Both of those are fine if you want a game full of black and white smite/don't smite moral gradation. However, if you run the ability either way, don't expect it to encourage nuanced thought or shades of grey.
And, do you know what? I never had any problems with out of control "paladins" smiting everything they detected. Why not? Because I ran the spell as written and I ran alignment distributions as written.
Humans are usually neutral. Roughly equal proportions are good and evil. So, on a rough estimate, in any given area somewhere from 10-60% of the population has an evil alignment. (In Greyhawk, the Duchy of Urnst would probably be around the 20% level and the bandit kingdoms would be topping 70%). These people are evil for a variety of reasons. Some of them are murderers, some of them are thieves (of the non-Hollywood "I only steal from those who can afford it and give the proceeds to the poor" variety), some of them would sell out their own mother to the forces of darkness in return for power (and some of those actually had a chance to do so). Others are willing to use "questionable" means in pursuit of causes they believe in (the return of the Suel Imperium, the expansion of the Theocracy of the Pale, rooting out heresy and cults, or even fighting Iuz (the story of Arthos's journey to the dark side in Warcraft III rather convincingly focusses on his obsession with defeating the undead and their demons)). And still others beat their wives, or cheat their customers. Then there are those who act perfectly according to the law but use zoning restrictions to shut down soup kitchens because giving the destitute free food cust into the profits of their bakery. And those who lionize villainy in order to gain fame and fortune ("it's what the market wants.") Not all such people deserve death. And even if they did, it wouldn't be practical to kill 20% of the population.
In my estimation, the reason that Detect Evil comes up as a problem is because DMs often use the "only real EVIL" shows up method. If only death cultists and demons radiate evil then paladins OUGHT to go around smiting everyone who radiates evil. After all, they're either a death cultist or a demon. Adopting that method of "dealing with the problem" is one of the things that creates the problem.
Another thing that creates the problem is DMs not using the D&D distribution of evil (which I think is realistic). If only the villains are evil then detecting evil is a good way to find the villain. (Add lingering 2eitus since that edition used a "immediate evil intent" test that amounts to much the same thing as "detect villain").
Finally, I would think that using the 3e/3.5e Detect Evil as written would have a self-correcting mechanism to the Detect Evil/Detect Villain confusion. A character radiating faint evil could be a acolyte of an evil priesthood, a veteran mercenary (5th level), or a very very weak demon. A character radiating moderate evil could be an initiate into the mysteries of a vile cult, a weak demon or undead... or an archmage or master assassin or polymorphed adult dragon. And when you get to strong evil, it could be anything from a mid level evil priest or demon to an epic level fighter or great wyrm dragon. The weak and moderate evil levels cast the net too wide for detect&smite--in any given bar, there are probably a half dozen evil men and women and they so far outnumber the cultists and demons that its like searching for a needle in a haystack. The moderate auras include a lot of powerful officials, successful adventurers, and wealthy merchants (mid-high level evil characters with NPC or PC classes) as well as a few demons, devils and cultists. Attacking them runs a lot of risks of biting off more than the paladin can chew (either politically in the merchant/official side of the equation or in combat if the evil character is a non-cleric evil adventurer) . At the strong level of evil and higher, the paladin can be pretty sure they're bad guys but unless he actually knows who they are, he risks attacking the disguised Lord Robilar the epic level fighter or Infernus the polymorphed Great Red Wyrm when he though he was tackling Jose Dimurdero, 8th level leader of a small death cult. All it takes is one mistake to snuff out a paladin who's detecting and smiting at this level. (Of course, at this level, there's another matter: Rings of Mind Shielding, Undetectable Alignment, etc are ridiculously easy for the kind of people who radiate strong evil to get their hands on--anyone who thinks he needs to hide probably won't let an evil aura give him away).
If Detect Evil=detect villain/license to smite in your games, it's likely that you're either running it as either detecting only [Evil] creatures or that the only evil npcs in your campaign world are the villains. Both of those are fine if you want a game full of black and white smite/don't smite moral gradation. However, if you run the ability either way, don't expect it to encourage nuanced thought or shades of grey.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Kamikaze Midget said:... then it punches holes in by book-valid interpretation...
If you interpret "evil creature" as "creature with the Evil descriptor", though, you end up with some oddities.
Holy: A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition.
-- So a deliciously Chaotic Evil Ftr-20 who boils puppies alive and kicks kittens for fun - but who doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor - can use a Holy longsword with no ill effects?
Holy Aura
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Clr 8, Good 8
A brilliant divine radiance surrounds the subjects, protecting them from attacks, granting them resistance to spells cast by evil creatures, and causing evil creatures to become blinded when they strike the subjects.
-- But no SR against the LE Wiz-20, and his horde of hobgoblin mercenaries can strike you without fear of being blinded... no [Evil] descriptor.
Holy Smite
Evocation [Good]
Level: Good 4
You draw down holy power to smite your enemies. Only evil and neutral creatures are harmed by the spell; good creatures are unaffected.
The spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) to each evil creature in the area (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level, maximum 10d6, to an evil outsider) and causes it to become blinded for 1 round. A successful Will saving throw reduces damage to half and negates the blinded effect.
-- Wait a moment... "neutral creatures"? Creatures with the [Neutral] descriptor? Bizarre. But at least the hobgoblin mercenaries take no damage from the Holy Smite.
Holy Word
Evocation [Good, Sonic]
Level: Clr 7, Good 7
Any nongood creature within the area that hears the holy word suffers the following ill effects.
-- Ooh... nongood creatures. "Creatures without the [Good] descriptor", presumably. Which would include... well, most of the party. Any party. Makes Holy Word a very dangerous spell...
And then there's the White Robe of the Archmagi, which has a weird effect on "evil characters" - is that different to "evil creatures"?
Or Holy Sword, which makes a weapon do more damage against "evil opponents". "Opponents with the [Evil] descriptor"?
-----
Or we could assume that "evil creature" means "creature with an evil alignment", like the FAQ says, and all of those weirdnesses go away.
-Hyp.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Y'know, odly, E-B, I've run it that way for my entire DMing career, and I run *quite* 'shades of gray' in my campaign...it hasn't precluded such playing, or encouraged a 'smite the villain' atmosphere....in fact, the spell has only really been useful for detecting the true evil who is masquerading as good....
Still, I'd like the answer to the question in your campaign: if a creature is Evil, why is it not Good to slay it? And if authority gets in your way, obviously this isn't legitimate authority, right? So what, other than a sense of destroying verisimilitude, stops your evil-detecters from killin' evil things?
This, among others, is one of the reasons I can't see how detecting evil alignment works well in a game...I haven't seen any good philosophical justification, within the given D&D morality system, why a Good character who detects evil (leave out law or chaos from it...either side is justifiable) cannot simply smite it.....I'm certainly open to reasons, though....
Still, good rest of the post, and it's opened me to perhaps changing my campaign back...though I'm unsure....
Still, I'd like the answer to the question in your campaign: if a creature is Evil, why is it not Good to slay it? And if authority gets in your way, obviously this isn't legitimate authority, right? So what, other than a sense of destroying verisimilitude, stops your evil-detecters from killin' evil things?
This, among others, is one of the reasons I can't see how detecting evil alignment works well in a game...I haven't seen any good philosophical justification, within the given D&D morality system, why a Good character who detects evil (leave out law or chaos from it...either side is justifiable) cannot simply smite it.....I'm certainly open to reasons, though....
Still, good rest of the post, and it's opened me to perhaps changing my campaign back...though I'm unsure....
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
It is a simple matter of justice.
The fact someone is Evil is not proof they have actually performed any Evil acts that justify martial retribution. Taking pleasure in verbally abusing an invalid grandmother is Evil. But does it warrant chopping someone's head off? No.
It is simply more likely that an Evil person has performed more Evil acts than a Neutral person or a Good person. Neutral people (and rarely Good people) do sometimes perform acts that are horrifically Evil.
Is your Paladin going to execute 10%-30% of the population on a guess?
The alignment system in D&D does not mechanistically force Evil people to perform Evil acts, nor does it prevent Neutral/Good people from performing Evil acts. The alignment is descriptive of a person's tendencies or desires, nothing more and nothing less. As stated in the PHB: "Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient."
Keep in mind, that a Paladin would usually hold that a properly functioning Lawful society would make most Evil acts unprofitable thereby discouraging Evil individuals from ever expressing their baser tendencies. Is the Paladin going to punish people for what they would do if they thought they could get away with it? I wouldn't know what to call that, but it certainly is neither just nor Good.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Ridley's Cohort said:
And someone who spent most of their life being evil, but has seen the light and is truly committed to trying to turn his life around...
... but hasn't balanced the scales yet...
... may still register as evil, despite the fact that they are now performing good deeds.
-Hyp.
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