Using Implements With Magic Item Powers...

[Pbartender]

So, I was just realizing that some magic items grant powers from classes that include the Implement keyword. Does anyone know the details of how this works?

For example, if a Cleric uses a magic item that grants Magic Missile as an encounter power, can that Cleric use his holy symbol as the implement for that spell and gain any benefits granted by it (such as bonuses to attack and damage)?

I, personally, don't see why not, but I'd like some second opinions before I decide.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, I was just realizing that some magic items grant powers from classes that include the Implement keyword. Does anyone know the details of how this works?

For example, if a Cleric uses a magic item that grants Magic Missile as an encounter power, can that Cleric use his holy symbol as the implement for that spell and gain any benefits granted by it (such as bonuses to attack and damage)?

I, personally, don't see why not, but I'd like some second opinions before I decide.

Let's say we have two half-elf rogues.

One takes the Arcane Initiate feat, which lets him use Magic Missile as an encounter power, and also grants him the ability to use a wand, staff, or orb as an implement when using a wizard power.

The other selects Magic Missile as his Dilettante power, which lets him use Magic Missile as an encounter power.

The first can use a wand as an implement when he casts Magic Missile; the second cannot.

----

Now let's say we have two half-elf clerics. One takes Thunderwave as his Dilettante power, the other takes Twin Strike.

We give each of them a Master's Wand of Magic Missile. Power (Encounter Arcane, Force, Implement): Standard Action. As the wizard’s magic missile power (PH 159).

The first can use the wand's power; the second cannot: Using a wand's power works like using the power normally. To do so, you need to be able to use at least one power from the same power source as the wand. The wand is arcane; the Thunderwave cleric can use an arcane power, but the Twin Strike cleric cannot. However, Magic Missile is an arcane spell, not a divine prayer, which means it needs a wand, staff, or orb (or rod) as an implement, not a holy symbol... and our half-elf cleric does not have the ability to use a wand, staff, or orb (or rod) as an implement. (If he'd taken Arcane (or Pact) Initiate instead, he could.)

Implement: Many arcane spells are more effective when used in conjunction with an implement—a wizard's staff, orb, or wand, or a warlock's rod or wand. Many divine prayers use holy symbols as implements.

I don't believe the cleric could use a holy symbol with an arcane spell; nor could he use an arcane implement without the Arcane (or Pact) Initiate feat.

-Hyp.

 

[DracoSuave]

If the cleric has a specific class trait that says 'You may use holy symbols as implements for wizard and wizard paragon path powers' then he can use his holy symbol for an item with a power from the wizard list.

Such does not exist, however, and his holy symbol permission only works with cleric powers.

 

[deleteme123456]

There is a holy symbol in the AV that allows you to use it as an implement for arcane powers, but it has a deity requirement (I forgot which one).

 

[Pbartender]

-Hyp.

Unfortunately, Hyp, that wasn't the question I was looking to have answered... The magic item in question is not necessarily a wand. I'm concerned more about whether he can use his implement with power from other classes that are granted by magic items, than whether he can actually use the power in question.

If the cleric has a specific class trait that says 'You may use holy symbols as implements for wizard and wizard paragon path powers' then he can use his holy symbol for an item with a power from the wizard list.

Such does not exist, however, and his holy symbol permission only works with cleric powers.

Aha... More importantly, I now notice that for each implement using class, the PHB states, under the Implement heading: "A cleric wearing or holding a magic holy symbol can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of cleric powers, as well as cleric paragon path powers, that have the implement keyword." The other classes have almost identical wording.

In other words, while the Cleric may be able to use Magic Missile through a magic item, his class feature specifically states that his implement only works with Cleric powers and Cleric paragon path powers.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Unfortunately, Hyp, that wasn't the question I was looking to have answered... The magic item in question is not necessarily a wand. I'm concerned more about whether he can use his implement with power from other classes that are granted by magic items, than whether he can actually use the power in question.

I thought we answered that one too

-Hyp.

 

[CapnZapp]

There is a holy symbol in the AV that allows you to use it as an implement for arcane powers, but it has a deity requirement (I forgot which one).

Star of Corellon, AV86.

 

[CapnZapp]

Unfortunately, Hyp, that wasn't the question I was looking to have answered... The magic item in question is not necessarily a wand. I'm concerned more about whether he can use his implement with power from other classes that are granted by magic items, than whether he can actually use the power in question.



Aha... More importantly, I now notice that for each implement using class, the PHB states, under the Implement heading: "A cleric wearing or holding a magic holy symbol can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of cleric powers, as well as cleric paragon path powers, that have the implement keyword." The other classes have almost identical wording.

In other words, while the Cleric may be able to use Magic Missile through a magic item, his class feature specifically states that his implement only works with Cleric powers and Cleric paragon path powers.

That said, I don't think it would be unreasonable to remove this requirement if you're creating an item with a power based on a "spell" (arcane or divine power) and you're fashioning the item as a general-purpose item.

For instance, if I were to create a wondrous item that enabled its owner to hurl a Fireball once a day, I would consider removing the "Implement" keyword from its description.

This way, everybody could use it equally. Or, in other words, you couldn't get a bonus out of any implement. (As an aside, any bonus to hit and damage should probably be the item's own enchantment bonus anyway)

 

[James McMurray]

Unfortunately, Hyp, that wasn't the question I was looking to have answered... The magic item in question is not necessarily a wand. I'm concerned more about whether he can use his implement with power from other classes that are granted by magic items, than whether he can actually use the power in question.

Hyp answered the question. He was only using wands as an example. In short: which implements you can use is a function of your class, path, etc.; not your list of available powers. Merely having access to a power (through an item, racial ability, or whatever) does not grant you the ability to use implements with it.

 

[Pbartender]

I thought we answered that one too

-Hyp.

Sorry, Hyp, if I misread... I must have been dazzled by your extensive array of examples. On first glance, they seemed focused toward the limitations of who can use wand powers.

Hyp answered the question. He was only using wands as an example. In short: which implements you can use is a function of your class, path, etc.; not your list of available powers. Merely having access to a power (through an item, racial ability, or whatever) does not grant you the ability to use implements with it.

But, even that's not quite the question I was asking...

I know that a Cleric cannot use a wand, just because he has access to a Wizard power. That much is plainly clear in the rulebook. Here a better example of the situation I'm looking at:

The Cleric class grants the use of of Holy Symbols as Implements. The Wizard class grants the use of Orbs, Staves, and Wands as Implements. Outside of any other special conditions or considerations, if a Cleric is granted a Wizard power(s) by any external source (magic items, feats, etc...) can the Cleric normally use his Holy Symbol as an Implement with those Wizard powers.

The answer is no, because his "Implement" class ability specifies that he can only use his implement with Cleric powers -- the specific Implement you use has nothing to do with it. For that matter, the Cleric cannot even use it with Paladin powers with the Implement keyword, even though Paladins also use Holy Symbols as their Implements.