D&D 5E Using Pathfinder's Polymorph spells in 5E

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone. I have not liked 5E's polymorph spells since the beginning. They're nice and simple to use at the table, but I feel like they give too much (lots of HP, high CR). About the only thing I liked about the Pathfinder rewrite were the polymorph spells. For those who have played both, or either, and have seen these spells in play, how do you think these would work in their place? 5E's Alter Self could remain as is, but here's the others:

Beast Shape I, II, III, and IV: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/beastShape.html#beast-shape-i
Plant Shape I, II, and III: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/plantShape.html#plant-shape-i
Elemental Body I, II, III, and IV: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/elementalBody.html#elemental-body-i
Form of the Dragon I, II, and III: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/formOfTheDragon.html#form-of-the-dragon-i
Polymorph and Greater Polymorph: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/polymorph.html#polymorph

 

[Staffan]

If I were to institute spells like those in 5e, I would keep the 5e way of just exchanging your stats for those of the new form, and have the spells in question determine what you can transform into. There's pretty much nothing in 5e that adds or subtracts from your ability scores in "runtime", because that would slow the game down immensely.

I would probably also go the upcasting route instead of having spell chains. So instead of beast shape I, II, III, and IV, I'd just have beast shape with strict restrictions, and when cast at higher levels those restrictions are loosened.

Oh, and another thing that's easy to overlook when you come from an earlier edition: 5e polymorph is essentially beast shape - you can only change into beasts. That reduces its utility significantly. In order to change into something other than a beast, you need something on the order of shapechange.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I would look at 4e's "form of" and "shape of" powers for druids and wardens to bridge the gap. You get an attack, a set movement, maybe a damage resistance or some other defensive ability, and maybe a change in size (probably look at enlarge/reduce for what that entails). The goal of the PF spells was "your physical stats still matter", and this does it, since the attack will use your strength score, no new hit points, and your AC will be the same (unless the spell's defensive ability ups the AC).

So something like:

Beast Shape
Level 2 spell (transmutation)
.....

You become a small beast with a speed of X, and a climb speed of Y. You gain advantage on perception checks (wisdom) based on smell. You can make a bite attack for 1d6+strength modifier.
When cast at higher levels:
At 3rd level, you can swap out the climb speed for a swim speed of Z, a burrow speed of A, or a flying speed of B. Your bite attack adds 1d6 poison damage.
At 4th level, you become a medium beast with movement X1. You gain advantage on perception checks (wisdom) based on smell or hearing. You can make a bite attack for 1d8+strength modifier plus any enemy hit by the bite must make a DC G save or be prone.
At 5th level, you can add a climb speed of V, a swim speed of W, or a flying speed of H, and you make 2 bite attacks.....

6 and 7 are large (and baseline 2 attacks, then grapple)
8 and 9 are huge (add extra damage for charging, then you can trample)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hi everyone. I have not liked 5E's polymorph spells since the beginning. They're nice and simple to use at the table, but I feel like they give too much (lots of HP, high CR).

HP is the big problem here. I agree that the game would be better off with a different kind of shape-changing, and from the links you post, I think the Pathfinder method is reasonable.

5E would probably have been better off if Wildshape and Polymorph had been written with stat-changing instead of stat-replacement. Stat replacement was a superficially simple solution, but I think it actually complicates things once you take player agency into account. If Polymorphing into a T-Rex just changed your size and Strength, etc., and gave you a bite attack, but let you retain your various capabilities like Extra Attack, I think it would still be useful and fun--and yet multiple Polymorphs wouldn't be broken the way they are today.

5E's Polymorph mostly "balances" Polymorph by just not having any powerful beasts, but that doesn't fit with the rest of the CR system, which pretty much says that CR is supposed to be CR is supposed to be CR, no matter how it happens. The fact that RAW Polymorph breaks badly the moment a DM introduces powerful beasts into his campaign (like Fifth Edition Foe's Chain Worms, or Tome of Beast's Spinosaurus) is, to me, an indication that Polymorph was already broken, and these beasts just exposed the bug. It's not the DM's fault for having powerful beasts--it's the PHB's fault for letting a 4th level spell hand out another full PC's worth of HP.

 

[Staffan]

5E's Polymorph mostly "balances" Polymorph by just not having any powerful beasts, but that doesn't fit with the rest of the CR system, which pretty much says that CR is supposed to be CR is supposed to be CR, no matter how it happens. The fact that RAW Polymorph breaks badly the moment a DM introduces powerful beasts into his campaign (like Fifth Edition Foe's Chain Worms, or Tome of Beast's Spinosaurus) is, to me, an indication that Polymorph was already broken, and these beasts just exposed the bug. It's not the DM's fault for having powerful beasts--it's the PHB's fault for letting a 4th level spell hand out another full PC's worth of HP.

An easy fix, which would also nerf the current polymorph something fierce, would be to require higher-level polymorph spells for higher-CR creatures. Maybe limit CR to spell level, or if you want to maintain its power level with baseline monsters, spell level x2 or +4.