Using people as cover and bullet penetration in d20 modern

[Beric]

Sure it does.. Isn't the damge already implied from the Gun type. So when you cut it half your going off of what that gun produce.

Addtionally the way you guys are doing it your completly leaving out the body part that gets hit... A bullet is more likely to go through a stomach wound (more soft tissue) but less likely to go through a chest wound (chance of hitting bone is greater. ) What if the dude being used as cover is a 400 pound sumo wrestler vs 120 thug (bullets less likely to go through the mass of the 400 guy. )

To much to worry about from a calculation standpoint. I say check to see if he hit.. if its close roll a percentage.

It all works out to the same thing. My way you have a straight perntage to hit something through something. Your way is just trying to calculate the percentage though heavy math.

Anyway all of this is covered in the actual DC roll anyway. Thats what concealment is. If you behind something you add concelment to the DC, if you hit you hit.. it hit what was showing, it went through the material, doesnt matter the hit still counts.

Beric

 

[D-rock]

Give the cover an absorption rating using the following formula:

thickness in inches X (hardness + 2)

It seems a good idea to make the projectile go through hardness at every inch like you have done instead of just the first. It might be better to do thickness in inches X(hardness) + a percentage of the total hit points. Although it realy isn't any different other than devideing the total hit points/inch by 10. So at 10% You wood need 6 damage to penetrate 1 inch of wood 12 to penetrate 2 inches and so forth. For metal you could raise it to 20 % that way you would need 16 damage to go through 1 inch and 32 to go through 2 inches of steel. Seems halfway reasonable. For flesh just use 1 hardness per inch. You could then just have the rest of the damage hurt the target if it hits him.

 

[D-rock]

Beric [/B][/QUOTE]

Addtionally the way you guys are doing it your completly leaving out the body part that gets hit...
Beric [/B][/QUOTE]


The rules leave out what part of the body is hit anyhow.



Beric [/B][/QUOTE]
To much to worry about from a calculation standpoint. I say check to see if he hit.. if its close roll a percentage.

It all works out to the same thing. My way you have a straight perntage to hit something through something. Your way is just trying to calculate the percentage though heavy math.
Beric [/B][/QUOTE]


You figure out what it would take to penetrate ahead of time. I agree you souldn't try to do math problems that slow down the game on the spot




Beric [/B][/QUOTE]
Anyway all of this is covered in the actual DC roll anyway. Thats what concealment is. If you behind something you add concelment to the DC, if you hit you hit.. it hit what was showing, it went through the material, doesnt matter the hit still counts.
Beric [/B][/QUOTE]

Not always if you incapacitate the guy and are holding him right in front of you your enemy knows exactly where you are. Some sniper might try to carfully aim around the person you are using as cover, but if there are eight people, all with automatic weapons and bullets are flying everwhere they are less inclined to stand there and aim carfully at a very small exposed part of someone's body. Its possible that the shooter doesn't even try to shot around the person you are holding up. Bad guys after all are less inclined to care about shooting one of there own.

 

[LostSoul]

It seems a good idea to make the projectile go through hardness at every inch like you have done instead of just the first. It might be better to do thickness in inches X(hardness) + a percentage of the total hit points.

Nah, too difficult. With the other formula (which is just my idea repackaged ), you don't have to calculate much of anything. Just do a simple multiply.

 

[Trepelano]

Yeah, props to LostSoul - I took his idea and quantified it. I'm sorry if that wasn't obvious.

Anyway - as with all house rules - I'm not tryignto force anybody to use this rule who doesn't want to - I am just throwing it out there as an alternative for those who care for such things.

In defense of the formula: You don't have to figure out the calculation that much. Just come up with a standard for the typical human body (dead or alive) - I figured 10 inches, but your own guestimate may differ. Once you've figured it once (in my case the absorption rating for a body is 20) you don't need to again. Of course you may decide that a really big guy (like Santa Claus) may absorb 40. Or you may decide that is all too much and the original "2" should be some other number (1 or .5 - hard to say - I have no factual bases for choosing the "2" I just plugged it in based on a hunch).

The biggest problem with all of this is that you have to make sure that your players understand that "Rule 0" has to be in effect.

Obviously, not all weapons will work in this manner - shotguns come to mind.

Worn body armor should not use this rule as they just apply AC.
You can, of course, choose to determine if the bullet travels through a bullet proof vest or simply found a weak spot. If you decide that it went thru it (I ain't even going to try to come up with a way to determine this) then add the AC bonus X 2 to the absorption rating (only to determine if it went thru the body - not to reduce damage to the person wearing the armor).

The big problem is that d20 combat is very ambigious - and using modern firearms with it is sort of an afterthought. It seems silly not to have rules for bullets going thru bodies - as this is a very normal part of gun fights.

But d20 combat is very "simple" and any attempt to make it more realistic is going to start complicating it. I guess the decision on how badly you want more realism in your modern combat is entirely up to you - since only you can decide if its worth it.

 

[Greatwyrm]

To keep things simple, how about just basing it around CON for creatures providing cover, like the massive damage rule.

If the bullet does enough damage to force a massive damage save, it blows through the target. Anybody immediately behind is subject to (initial damage - hostage's CON) in damage. Of course, that assumes you would have hit them if they didn't have the hostage as cover.

 

[D-rock]

Nah, too difficult. With the other formula (which is just my idea repackaged ), you don't have to calculate much of anything. Just do a simple multiply.

Acutally, I thought I said that my formula was simular to some to the ones above it. Although I should have been more clear and reread what I had wrote. I wasn't trying to steal your idea I was just trying to find a way to get something like flesh to work without hardness.

Plus I thought it was to easy for it to go through steel still.

I guess for flesh it would be easier to say it just takes 1 damage/inch to keep it simple or something like that....maby add +1 damage for the bonus of the armor the cover is wearing.

 

[D-rock]

Yeah, props to LostSoul - I took his idea and quantified it. I'm sorry if that wasn't obvious.



The big problem is that d20 combat is very ambigious - and using modern firearms with it is sort of an afterthought. It seems silly not to have rules for bullets going thru bodies - as this is a very normal part of gun fights.

But d20 combat is very "simple" and any attempt to make it more realistic is going to start complicating it. I guess the decision on how badly you want more realism in your modern combat is entirely up to you - since only you can decide if its worth it.

I realize that a rgp can't be a reality simulator,and d20 modern has a lot of abstact rules that I don't mind(I don't even mind the wealth checks as long as common sense is used), but having rules for bullets going through walls doors, cars, and people just seems like something that would be in a cinimatic type game as this is suppost to be. I want my high power .50 calaber rifle to be able to go through a car better than a guy stooting at it with a .22 revolver.

 

[D-rock]

Oh ya, thanks to everybody for giving me some good ideas on this.