D&D 5E Using Suggestion To Thwart Zone of Truth

[plisnithus8]

A save makes the most sense when something bad happens to a character…originating from someone or something else.

It doesn’t seem like casting MM on self to avoid ZoT is either bad or originating from beyond one’s self.

Or could the caster cast MM in a way that lowers the spell save dc (like pulling a punch), maybe so poorly that saving is practically impossible to fail?

 

[plisnithus8]

[duplicate post deleted]

 

[Lyxen]

Even if the creature knows it contradicts the truth, I would argue that the following is a legitimate use of suggestion:

"The King's oppression of his people made his assassination inevitable. Who wielded the blade is irrelevant--he himself brought about his own death. So saying that you didn't kill him is true... from a certain point of view."

That is such a disingenuous way of presenting things that it would certainly trigger Zone of Truth, at least in my campaigns.

But then, I'm probably biased; I detest spells like zone of truth.

And I think that it's way too easy to abuse and lie in a TTRPG, since there are way fewer hard facts and elements to relate to than in the real world. That being said, in most of the games and settings where I've played, magic "evidence" is not receivable, because it would imply total trust in the magic being used and there are counters to it anyway. It's still useful for investigation, and it can be abused by the PCs and their enemies, and it provides an interesting additional dimension for the games.

 

[Bill Zebub]

The suggestion could be a course if action to answer a certain question with a specific falsehood.
Zone of Truth only prevents a “deliberate lie.”
Is “deliberate” the opposite of “forced,” making this lie similar to forced movement not triggering opportunity attacks?

DON’T CROSS THE BEAMS!

 

[Greg Benage]

"The King's oppression of his people made his assassination inevitable. Who wielded the blade is irrelevant--he himself brought about his own death. So saying that you didn't kill him is true... from a certain point of view."

None of this seems to fall within the purview of the suggestion spell. It allows the caster to dictate a course of action; it doesn't allow them to implant thought-worms.

 

[Lyxen]

A save makes the most sense when something bad happens to a character…originating from someone or something else.

You can play it the way you like in your games, I was just pointing out that the RAW simply specify when a save has to happen, so if your DM follows the RAW, it's not necessarily a question of when it makes sense to your character.

It doesn’t seem like casting MM on self to avoid ZoT is either bad or originating from beyond one’s self.
Or could the caster cast MM in a way that lowers the spell save dc (like pulling a punch), maybe so poorly that saving is practically impossible to fail?

5e is not built along the lines of spells that are poorly or well or adaptively cast. It's just a formula that produces a given effect. So RAW, there is no way to alter the save DC that way, although of course a DM can rule it differently for various reasons.

 

[Lycurgon]

Suggestion can't circumvent Zone of Truth. Suggestion can't change what someone thinks or believes. It can make someone follow a course of action, if that cource of action is worded in a reasonable way. It can't make them believe something happened that didn't, or change their memory. It might make them want to lie, that could be a reasonable suggestion. "I suggest you lie about X because you will be in just as much trouble as the rest of us if they know the truth."

But that does not make someone be able to lie within a Zone of Truth. Suggestion makes the target pursue a course of action to the "best of its ability." It does not change their abilities, just makes them want to complete the task. If the are in a Zone of Truth and fail their save, they no longer have the ability to lie. So they don't have the ability to complete the task while in the Zone.

 

[plisnithus8]

You can play it the way you like in your games, I was just pointing out that the RAW simply specify when a save has to happen, so if your DM follows the RAW, it's not necessarily a question of when it makes sense to your character.

Your response above is not to my opinion about what makes sense to me or other players/characters. What you quoted and responded to was a quote from the DMG (p. 238).

“A save makes the most sense when something bad happens to a character and the character has a chance to avoid that effect. An ability check is something a character actively attempts to accomplish, whereas a saving throw is a split-second response to the activity of someone or something else.”

 

[Burnside]

The wording of Zone of Truth says that it detects a "deliberate lie". Deliberate means "intentional." Since a creature compelled to knowingly lie is not doing so voluntarily, I would rule that Suggestion could loophole Zone of Truth. Even if the creature is well aware that they are lying, the lie is not deliberate on their part - it's compelled.

For those saying that using "Suggestion" to force a creature to lie isn't a "reasonable" course of action as defined by the spell: the example the Suggestion spell description gives for something Suggestion can make a creature do is "make a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets." If the spell can do that, it can make the knight tell a lie.

As a DM, I would allow this tactic to succeed but the Suggestion spell would have to be worded carefully. "Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!" would work.

 

[HammerMan]

If Suggestion is used to make a creature believe something is true, can the spell be used as a means of bypassing a Zone of Truth since the creature has made itself believe the falsehood is truth?

Can a creature cast Suggestion on themselves in order to accomplish this?

skipping the suggestion spell just lieing to the target works..

Jim tells Bill "Hey the king wants us to hire 4 guys to stand guard for almost no reason... pays well if you ask no quastions, here is 10gp for you and 3gp for each guard for 2 days work"

Bill hires 4 gaurds pays them each 3gp and says "You just need to stand here look tough and let no one in unless they have a pass like this. It's good work it's from the king, I'm not asking why and neither should you"

PCs capture a guard put him in a zone of truth "Why are you standing gaurd?" "Cause I want to buy my kids food... I got paid 3gp by the king"

truth: Jim is a changling assassin that does not work for the king... he isn't even named Jim... infact there IS a real Jim that works for the king... good luck with zone of truth