Using the Expert Class in a Low-magic world.

[HarryFlashman]

Hi guys, this is my first post at ENworld in nearly a year (I even had to re-register).

In any case, I might be DMing a game soon and I will be sticking with my favorite sort of setting, Low-magic.

There will be no Wizards, no Sorcerors, and no Druids.

All other classes who either have access to spells or who will eventually attain access to spells have had their progression tables modified downward in such ways that they will each attain their normal highest level of spells but the progression is slowed and the number of spells are decreased. Also all damaging spells follow the odds=one rules (wherein odd numbers rolled on damage dice are automatically considered ones in regards to damage done).

I will be using Ken Hood's Grim-n-Gritty rules set (except Psionics so that is his Combat rules and Martial Arts rules). If you have not looked at Ken Hood's Martial Arts rules then the rest of this post might be indecipherable.

In Ken Hood's Martial Arts rules (which do not supplant the Monk class)most martial arts are skill based. The skills coorelate with martial arts maneuvers much like the Speak languages skill works with languages, that is with X number of skill points applied to martial arts training then certain martial arts maneuvers may be learned. The maneuvers are weaker than feats but when combined they can either overpower feats or be used to by feats that expand the maneuvers or even "super" feats.

As you can see most classes would be at a disadvantage trying to learn martial arts in the fashion explained above ( rangers, bards, and rogues would do well but at the risk of devaluing their traditional roles).

In the interest of keeping Ken Hood's Martial Arts viable I would like to introduce either the Expert NPC class represented in the DMs Manual or the Expert PC class represented in Otherworld Creation's "Forbidden Kingdoms" (a pulp genre D20 game).

Assuming you are all familiar with, or can easily become familiar with, the DM's Manual version of the Expert I will list only the Forbidden Kingdom's version.


BAB: Average ( first +0, twentieth +15+10+5)

Base Save Bonus: Will=Good, Fort=poor, Ref=poor ( though I think that I will leave this as a "floating save determined at creation)

Skills: Any ten, two of which may be "exclusive" skills. (this is ignored after first level I assume due to "Jack of All Trades" class feature)
Skill points: At first (5+Int mod)x 4, per add. level 5+Int mod

HD d6

Class features:
Starts with Simple Weapon Prof
Starts with "Jack of All Trades"; no skills are cross-class skills.
Starts with "Expertise"; choose five that represent an area of expertise. each skill gets a one time bonus of +3

At third level and every two levels beyond ( 5th then 7th etc) the Expertise skills set gets a free one time bonus of 1 point

At level six, level twelve, and level eighteen the Expert may choose another set of 5 skills with which he /she is an Expert in (the one time bonus attained every three levels may be applied to these skill sets)



So what do you think? Which should I utilize or should I figure something else out?

Thankyou for your time.

 

[Scion]

Expertise at first level, you choose 5 skills and get a +3?? wow.. I would suggest toning that down just a little Maybe to chooseing 1 every odd level or something until you have a total of X. I figure you were trying to emulate the rangers ability somewhat.. but I think that just chooseing a new one every odd level and getting an extra +1 in any one of your choice.. or something similar to that. That way it isnt incredibly front loaded, and every now and then you dont have a huge influx of skill power.

Also, why not just give the guys 6 skill points per level? 5 seems like an odd number to choose, but whatever your reasons are i'd love to hear them

Otherwise looks cool. How are you working alchemy? Generally in worlds with little/no magic alchemy plays a larger role.

Edit: how about a free skill focus at every level that a fighter would get a bonus feat? along with a feat that grants +1 to all skills which have skill focus chosen, prereqs of having 4 skill focus, and then 8, and finally 12 (for a total of +3 extra for three feats across at least 15 skills)

 

[HarryFlashman]

I just printed the class as presented in the book "Forbidden Kingdoms" published by Otherworld Creations ( http://www.otherworlds.cx/). It is not a class developed by me, but the parenthesied comments were mine.


I thought the "5 skill points" thing was a bit odd myself, but as I said, I just presented the class as it was printed. I think that if I use the class I will use 6 skill points rather than the published 5.

you said this:

Maybe to chooseing 1 every odd level or something until you have a total of X. I figure you were trying to emulate the rangers ability somewhat.. but I think that just chooseing a new one every odd level and getting an extra +1 in any one of your choice.. or something similar to that.

What is "it"? Skills that recieve a +3 bonus or something else entirely?

Edit: how about a free skill focus at every level that a fighter would get a bonus feat? along with a feat that grants +1 to all skills which have skill focus chosen, prereqs of having 4 skill focus, and then 8, and finally 12 (for a total of +3 extra for three feats across at least 15 skills)

Are you saying that Skill Focus every two levels would take the place of the bonus points awarded every three levels? In this case a +2 Skill Focus bonus to one skill every other level rather than a +1 bonus to five skills every three levels?

ok asuming both skills are equal
Skill Focus Expertise Bonus
+2 +3 x5
+2
+1 x5
+2

+2 +1 x5

+2
+1 x5
+2

At tenth level the bonus points from the Skill Focus feat equals +12 ( 2 points to 6 skills) skill points while the bonus points from the Expertise Bonus class feature would award 30 skill points ( [3x5] + [1x5] + [1x5] + [1x5] ).

Agreed. This is a bit excessive

If we trimmed the first level bonus down to a +1 bonus then we see a total of 20 points which is still excessive.

If we trim the number of skills the bonus is applicable to four skills then we see a total of 24 skill points.

If we combine both of these measures we see 16 total skill points but there is also a long period of wating between class features so I would have to say that I agree with your assessment.

ok, my next question. Would you play this class in a low magic world?

(No, I do not have any plans for including alchemy in the campaign but I would nto be adverse to including it. Do you have a good link for simple alchemy rules?)

 

[Scion]

I have used so many different sources for alchemy in my world I cant even begin to list them.. plus I dont know where they are, when I find good stuff I just print it and store it in the 'to be used' folder. But there are a lot of good things out there for it.. In a low magic world I'd say that, for a price, the alchemist could duplicate just about any spell out there.. given time, proper reagents, research, training, etc.. What are big powerful creatures for other than turning into potions and salves?? One of my characters had a specially designed portable hole that I would toss whole chuncks of recently dead creatures for later study..

Anyway though, as for the expert class.. something like this

every even level skill focus, each time you must choose a different skill.
5 skill points per level, when they enter the class they must choose 10 skills.

A special feat is developed that can be taken everytime a character has a multiple of 4 skill focus's, this feat raises all skill focus feats by +1.

I would even go so far as to suggest at some higher level (8+ perhaps) that they gain another ability that takes away the double cost of cross classed skill.. they still have the max rank penalty, but dont have to pay double.

Now you have a character.

If I was in a low/no magic campaign world and I wasnt able to take a spellcaster I would go for this guy.. if there was no rogue. Skills are very nice, but generally not incredibly pervasive, and almost never useful in combat for a huge effect (tumble is nice but it doesnt help you do much besides get into position, if you have nothing to do once you are there then you are in trouble). In a campaign with little combat this guy could definately shine.

If you are keeping all of the other classes then I would also suggest at really high levels special abilities like the rogue. Sortof a, 'I know so much about everything that I can gain XXXX'. List out some special things like being able to take 10 or 15 on knowledge checks, treat everything that you craft as though it had the +10 difficulty but without actually having to get that high (ie craft dc 20, whenever he rolls for a check he has to beat 20 but it is multiplied as though it was a 30), being able to take 10 on skills just like the rogues ability, bonus feat chosen from a list of your choosing.


I know you didnt make the class I am not really sure what it was designed for in the first place.. sorry to keep making suggestions about it if they arent useful somehow.. Are you going to leave all other classes intact other than wizard, sorcerer and druid? Cleric is a real powerhouse of spell casting, bard can be as well actually if made properly, just not as much as the other casters..

 

[Nifft]

Check out my House Rule'd Expert Class:

http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/new-classes.shtml#expert

-- N