D&D 3.x v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Wulf Ratbane]

We've had armies half million strong go at it and though Mass Combat rules are used for such occasions; there have been others whereupon it was simply a Party (or even just single Character*) versus an entire Army.

*Thrin was a one man wrecking crew even back when he was mid-level. My favourite was Thrin (at 11th-level) versus a 10,000 strong Army, charged in and fought his way to the leader (who was higher level) and then defeated him and forced the armies surrender.

Such cases demand neither your rules, nor mass combat rules. That's not rules, that's story.

I'd rather my GM sum up it up just like that ("Thrin hacks his way through the entire army, and now faces the commander...") than force me to make 10,000 attack rolls to prove a foregone conclusion.

Wulf

 

[ciaran00]

Such cases demand neither your rules, nor mass combat rules. That's not rules, that's story.

I'd rather my GM sum up it up just like that ("Thrin hacks his way through the entire army, and now faces the commander...") than force me to make 10,000 attack rolls to prove a foregone conclusion.

Wulf

Actually I've been using U_K's system quite effectively for mass combat... It's the ENTIRE reason why I have been looking forward to his releases. And you can't delegate mass combat to "story" when both a player and a DM has sound tactics and a considerable force to pitch against each other.

ciaran

 

[Upper_Krust]

I couldn't access the boards last night, so sorry for the delay.

Hello Upper_Krust, everyone!

Hi Moobus!

Should probably start by saying this document is a godsend - I almost can't believe how much sense it makes, especially compared to the mess CR is in 3.5.

Well thanks for the kind words...in a way I suppose it is something of a godsend.

But I was wondering how well the system scales at very high levels. Looking through the Epic monster CRs, I just don't know that (say) a Hecatoncheire is anywhere near a match for a lone level 100 PC, nevermind a 50/50 opponent. Even a party of fairly standard (read: not min/maxed to hell) level 60 characters should wipe out any monster in the ELH.

Well the problem with the Hecatonchiere is that its rating includes all its attacks; essentially its full potential. However, against a lone opponent of medium size its only going to be able to bring 15 attacks to bear against them which effectively knocks a large chunk off its CR.

In fact I calculate its CR versus a single medium sized opponent to be 79.

Maybe I'm wrong; I've never actually /played/ in a campaign approaching level 30. And I know it's not an issue in practice, but when the first tenet of the system is to make CR equivalent to PC levels, I do get to wondering

Were there any others you weren't comfortable with?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

If I've got this right, the Hecatoncheires is an appropriate moderate challenge for a 27th-level party.

No. Its a moderate challenge for a party of 108th-level characters. Its a difficult (50/50) challenge for a party of 54th-level characters and its a near impossible fight for a party of 27th-level characters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

Yep, you got it.

No he doesn't. Stop confusing people!

The hecatonchiere (wtf that is...)

It means 'Hundred Handed Ones'. As you can guess it has 100 arms, looks like a fleshy tree with arms for instead of branches.

is CR 111, EL27.

A single 111th level character is EL27.

Well its CR 108 after the Silver Rule but the EL is the same so no big deal I guess.

A party of four 27th level characters is EL27 (CR 108, converts to EL27).

No they are not. Have you forgotten your new rules already!? Remember you have to reduce EL for character numbers.

Four 27th-level characters (total CR 108 = EL 27, -4 EL (four characters) = EL 23).

Four 27th-level characters are vastly overpowered.
Four 54th-level characters would be a match.
Four 108th-level characters see the Hecaontchiere as a moderate challenge

...although all that said, the Hecatonchiere actually has a variable CR depending on who its fighting - since it can only ply so many limbs against a single opponent.

EDIT: I don't know if that's a judgement on whether the system scales upwards or not. I don't really play (or even like) Epic. Blasphemy, I know.

Blasphemy indeed.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Moobus!

It would be moderate for a party with PEL 27, or average character level 96-111...which I think is crazy.

Don't listen to any of these guys - they are leading you up the garden path.

A lone spellcaster of that level (or even lower) wouldn't blink an eye, when it should be 50/50.

Against a single medium sized opponent the Hecatonchiere is CR 79...though I should probably just take half the number of effective arms out of the equation and settle for the average, making it CR 91, the Hecatonchiere is an annoying beasty to gauge. Its CR is between 79 and 108 though.

Hell, it's probably not too hard to make a level 100 warrior-type (he'd have /how much/ cash?) with AC the Hecatoncheires can't touch.

He'd have 100 million GP worth of equipment under my Wealth Tables.

I have the impression that everything falls apart at those levels anyway, making an accurate CR even less relavent...but surely there's some way to adjust?

The CRs are accurate, you just picked one of the most annoying buggers (the Hecatonchiere) for your example.

Or am I really crazy and the Hecatoncheires would trounce said characters? I suppose I could try to play a few scenarios out...

I am confident that it would be a good fight between it and a single 79th-level character.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Don't forget, EL 27 is either ONE 111th level character, or FOUR 27th level characters.

Err, no actually.

EL 27 = one 111th level character
EL 27 = four 54th-level characters
EL 27 = fifteen 27th-level characters
EL 27 = three hundred and eighty four 5th-level characters

Perhaps this is a better test of the system:

Forget the hecawhatsis.

Do four 27th level characters stand a 50/50 against a lone 111th level character?

No.

You would need fifteen 27th-level characters to stand a 50/50 chance against a lone 111th-level character.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Moobus!

Mm, page 16 (on Party Level and Party Encounter Level, with a few examples) seems to suggest PL is the average of character level, and PEL the number we get after adjustment for EL (according to Table 2-1) and then adjustment based on number of PCs.

Thats correct, and using those figures should give you proper results; even though I am changing to Wulfs simpler system in v4.1.

That said, Wulf has seemingly got his wires crossed here.

One PC always equals four PCs of half its level, or sixteen PCs one quarter its level.

So a 20th-level character is equal to four 10th-level characters or sixteen 5th-level characters.

Similarly a 108th-level character is equal to four 54th-level characters or sixteen 27th-level characters*.

*For the eagle eyed among you yes I did say fifteen 27th-level characters in the previous post because therein I was using the EL table directly rather than 'relatively'.

I was also going to bring up the lone uber-character vs. a party of weaker Epic characters...That would test whether EL and PEL match up, as opposed to CR vs. character level (what I'm interested in now). But I'm honestly not sure I can play out an encounter like that effectively.

I have tested the system up to 200th-level, and I am confident it works at least up to that measure of power.

Incidently in Wulfs new EL system PEL is scrapped altogether, its a much simpler system, its really starting to grow on me.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

A question... Do undead and constructs sell back their INT and CON to 0? (thus taking 0.1*10+0.1*10 if they are medium sized)?
Mmmmh.... Your size cost has a column for constructs... Is it the base cost minus the cost of the missing CON?

As Sorcica was nice enough to mention, non-ability scores are already factored in the Traits for those creature types.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Heya mate!

Theory of Everything is a piece of cake. Determining CR is where things get complicated

These physicists have it easy!

If nobody else has been doing them, I will revise the letters L, M, N and O. Should be enough to keep me occupied for a while...

Appreciate the help mate!