CRGreathouse said:
1 hobgoblin (EL 2): 300 gp (300 each)
8 hobgoblins (EL 8): 1470 gp (184 each)
So when you get more hobgoblins together, they collect less treasure?
First off, a hobgoblin is EL 3 (CR 1.5) . . . Second, eight hobgoblins would thus be EL 9 . . . That means 390 for the single hobgoblin and 1830 for the eight hobgoblins . . . Where do you get the idea that the amount of treasure per hobgoblin matters in the slightest? Treasure scales by EL, not per creature; as such, the amount per creature is a moot point in every conceivable way. This is D&D, not Final Fantasy.
Upper_Krust said:
Hi all!
It seems as if we have reached an
impasse.
We have three systems for determining treasure, none are perfect, but each have their pros and cons.
The only con in mine is that at higher ELs with wide CR spans, the treasure slants up at the low end and down at the high end; in a campaign, though, this evens out absolutely perfectly.
Basically, the only thing it does it not perfectly follow the wealth formulas; if you base wealth on the treasure gained, every level between two ELs is linear until you reach the next EL. This is not a problem, however, as it still evens out PER EL, which is the basis for challenges and XP anyway, meaning it is perfectly and flawlessly balanced.
EL 21 is Levels 32-39 . . . EL 21 treasure is 117,120 gp . . . This gives more than the average wealth for the bottom end and less at the top end, but unlike the unbalanced results basing results on CR, these even out even using other ELs and give the proper treasure for the XP gained as well.
Upper_Krust said:
1. Treasure determined by Challenge Rating: 90 x CR x (CR+1) + 30.
2. Treasure determined by Encounter Level (by Anubis): ((Lowest Wealth of EL+1) - Lowest Wealth of EL) x 0.3 ÷ # of Levels with that EL band
Is that right Anubis mate?
Not exactly. It's specific for the first 20 ELs, but from EL 21+, it's based on a range of CRs. Again:
Well, after doing some checking, my proposal doesn't really work very well at all. At low levels, it totally bombs due to the huge jumps in EL at the initial levels. I guess relative treasure don't work after all!
Anyway, I've been thinking very hard about this, and I think I have come up with a solution. The ONLY possible bad thing about the solution is that wealth gained during gaming would not exactly match wealth from the tables at certain points. Then again, I don't know a single campaign where those tables are followed to the number, so the differences are within acceptable limits. All things considered, it all balances out in the end because although you get more treasure at the low end of a particular EL, you get less treasure at the high end of the same EL. All in all it's the ONLY solution that works at ALL levels.
Indeed, you must give out treasure PER EL (as you guessed at one point), and have a specific level of treasure for each EL. This of course would normally give us the problem of giving more treasure to higher level characters within the same EL, right? WRONG. By taking the average needed for every level within a given EL, you get an average amount of treasure per encounter within that EL.
In order to do this, though, you must change things at ALL levels, not just epic levels. I present to you the following chart:
Code:
EL Treasure Value Treasure Level
==================================================
1 210 1
2 300 1 (+90 gp)
3 390 1 (+180 gp)
4 480 1 (+270 gp)
5 570 2
6 840 3
7 1,110 4
8 1,470 5
9 1,830 6
10 2,730 7
11 3,810 8
12 5,070 9
13 7,320 11
14 10,920 12
15 15,240 14
16 20,280 15
17 29,280 16
18 43,680 18
19 60,960 19
20 81,120 20
21 117,120
For every value that is within the parameters of the DMG, I went ahead and assigned a Treasure Level from the DMG. The first column is the EL of the encounter. The second column is what the value of a treasure from such an encounter should be in order to keep PCs with wealth parameters. The third column gives us the Treasure Level from the DMG to use that matches those values, as per p.170 of the DMG. Five Treasure Levels will of course never be used, but that's okay. Each Treasure Level indicated gives an average of the indicated amount of treasure and thus keeps PCs within wealth guidelines. Over Treasure Level 20, it is of course up to the DM to assign treasure that is worth a total of about the given value, as per the suggestions in the ELH about not randomly generating epic treasure.
The numbers in the second column were obtained through a method similar to the one I gave you before for obtaining treasure values per level. The formula seems more complex, but it actually isn't and this is unfortunately the only way to get accurate treasure numbers. It's no more complicated than your entire CR system. The formula is as follows:
{ [ (calculated wealth for first level of next EL) - (calculated wealth for bottom level of current EL) ] *4 } / 13 1/3 / (number of levels in current EL)
That looks even more intimidating than before, of course, and likely needs explanation. What it means is subtract the wealth of the bottom level of the current EL from the wealth of the bottom level of the next EL up (because that's how much wealth should be accumulated through that particular EL), multiply the result by 4, and then divided it by 13 1/3. Then finish it up by dividing the result by the number of levels within the current EL. Remember that by the system, 13 1/3 encounters is the technical norm, and that is where I got the number of course. Of course there is an even easier way to get the following numbers, which I will get to later. Now it is time for an example to explain. The following is how you get the value of an EL 21 treasure:
EL 21 = Levels 32-39
EL 22 = Levels 40-47
PC Level 40 (bottom level of EL 22) Wealth: 6,400,000
PC Level 32 (bottom level of EL 21) Wealth: 3,276,800
For this formula, it has been shown to me that the functions of * 4 and / 13-1/3 are much more easily expressed with a single function of * .3
6,400,000 - 3,276,800 = 3,123,200
3,123,200 * .3 = 936,960
936,960 / 8 (number of levels within EL 21) = 117,120
As I said, PERFECT. This finally fixes the problems with wealth and treasure, assuming you use the wealth formula that has been settled upon. I know this is a bit complex, but then again, it's 255% necessary. You changed the way to CR/EL system works, which breaks the current treasure system by default because it was run based around the old CR/EL system. As such, there were bound to be complications when wealth was changed, and as such, treasure needed to be changed right along with it.
Anyway, problem solved.
Okay, not exactly perfect, but still far more accurate than all other systems unless anyone can prove otherwise.
Upper_Krust said:
3. Treasure determined by Experience Points: EXP x ((EXP+300) ÷ 1000) + 30
If we use Method #1 we get conflicting results when EL is a variable.
If we use Method #2 we get conflicting results when the # of monsters is a variable.
No we don't. What conflicting results? Treasure has NEVER been given "per creature". Not in the core rules (3 or 3.5) and not in any previous versions of these rules. Only the lame CR treasure rules ever gave treasure per creature. My system gives treasure PER ENCOUNTER, as it should be and is perfectly balanced to be.
Upper_Krust said:
If we use Method #3 we get conflicting results when (PC) CR is a variable...though according to Wulf this isn't actually a flaw.
Personally I think we may (?) have to go with two methods: Fixed (as per Method #1) and Relative (as per Method #3).
Anubis method (#2) is somewhere in between both of these.
I am curious to hear what the rest of you think on the matter before I make any decisions?
Like I said, I would like someone to point out any flaws in my system. That creature example was a totally lame (and futile) attempt because the point is balancing treasure with XP gains, meaning the number of creatures is moot.
