D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[CRGreathouse]

First off, a hobgoblin is EL 3 (CR 1.5) . . . Second, eight hobgoblins would thus be EL 9 . . . That means 390 for the single hobgoblin and 1830 for the eight hobgoblins . . . Where do you get the idea that the amount of treasure per hobgoblin matters in the slightest? Treasure scales by EL, not per creature; as such, the amount per creature is a moot point in every conceivable way. This is D&D, not Final Fantasy.

Where do I get the idea? Someone has to be holding the money, or has to have it buried, or whatever. For what reason do the cooperative hobgoblins have less money and equipment? It matters because I'm simulationist, it matters because it doesn't make sense.

Your system's biggest problems, on first inspection, is that they don't make sense between a macro and a micro level, and that they can jump greatly between some CRs (and not much between others).

Edit: In U_K's v5, hobgoblins (with both rules) are CR 1.25, EL 2.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

I think his method is determining Wealth by Level, not Treasure per Encounter.

I was specifically refering to:

The gp value is given by the treasure formula with 2^((EL-1)/4) in place of the level.

Anubis is on the right track, but I would tie my solution to XP awarded instead of directly to EL. GP should parallel XP awarded;

So you think my Treasure by EXP equation...

EXP x ((EXP+300) ÷ 1000) + 30

...is the most appropriate?

Personally I would prefer a fixed rather than relative solution.

I think the equation goes fuzzy in the DMG because they are actually assuming a loss of some accumulated wealth, from level to level, in terms of expendable resources.

That makes sense.

FYI, I outsourced the problem to the finest minds in Bangalore, graduates of IIT, and am waiting to hear back. So if a solution can't be found, it won't be for a lack of trying.

Good luck to them. Might have been easier however if you had just emailed Monte Cook (or taken the question to his boards).

That said I don't think there is a universal solution.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

Where do I get the idea? Someone has to be holding the money, or has to have it buried, or whatever. For what reason do the cooperative hobgoblins have less money and equipment? It matters because I'm simulationist, it matters because it doesn't make sense.

Does that mean you advocate something akin to my Treasure by Challenge Rating rule?

90 x CR x (CR+1) + 30.

Your system's biggest problems, on first inspection, is that they don't make sense between a macro and a micro level, and that they can jump greatly between some CRs (and not much between others).

I think trying to fathom Treasure maybe an 'equation too far'. I simply don't think we are going to end up with a solution that can please all the people all of the time. In essence, somethings got to give.

If we use CR (individually) to determine Treasure then we get a fixed result; however multiple low CR creatures yield more treasure than same EL higher CR creatures. So there is that disparity.

If we use EXP to determine Treasure then we get a relative result; with higher level characters picking up more treasure for simply being higher level. So there is that disparity.

If we use EL to determine Treasure we arrive at a result which is both fixed and relative; however, while ostensibly innacurate it should even out in the end. Unfortunately this method is by far the clumsiest to implement.

Edit: In U_K's v5, hobgoblins (with both rules) are CR 1.25, EL 2.

Anubis must have glanced at v4 by mistake and made the assumption the CR was still the same. Easy mistake to make.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If we use EXP to determine Treasure then we get a relative result; with higher level characters picking up more treasure for simply being higher level. So there is that disparity.

Just want to correct you on that, UK.

For a moderate encounter, PCs always earn 75xp x Character Level.

They aren't earning more treasure for being higher level, they are earning more treasure because a moderate encounter, for them, is a higher EL.

They are fighting tougher creatures, and they get more treasure, and this is true regardless of what CR, EL, and Treasure system you're using.


Wulf

 

[Cheiromancer]

The gp value is given by the treasure formula with 2^((EL-1)/4) in place of the level.

I must admit though I still don't understand Cheiromancers equation for determining Treasure - can you explain that to me mate with an example?

Not surprising. I left out a -1.

Here's my explanation: your treasure formula gives the appropriate treasure for a party of level n. You just calculate 90*n*(n+1)+30. I wanted to find out what the EL of an appropriate challenge to an nth level party, and assign it that treasure value.

Given a standard array, each member of the party will have a CR of n+1. 4 party members, so the total CR is 4n+4. I converted that into EL through the formula EL=1+4*log2(CR) and subtracted 4 to find the party EL(because there were 4 creatures in the group) and then subtracted 4 again (because a moderate encounter is 4 below the party EL) obtaining

(1+4*log2(4n+4))-8

Which is the same as

(1+4(log2(n+1)+2))-8

equals

1+4*log2(n+1)+8-8

And the 8s cancel, obtaining 1+4*log2(n+1). For example, for a first level party (n=1), a moderate encounter is

1+4*log2(1+1)=1+4*log2(2)=1+4*1=EL 5

The "n" in the formula is what is put into the treasure formula. Given EL=1+4*log2(n+1), you solve for n by the following:

EL = 1+4*log2(n+1)
EL-1 = 4*log2(n+1)
(EL-1)/4 = log2(n+1)
2^(EL-1)/4 = n+1
(2^(EL-1)/4)-1 = n

This is the formula I should have quoted. (2^(EL-1)/4)-1 is what gets put into the treasure formula.

So if EL=9 we get

(2^(9-1)/4)-1
(2^8/4)-1
(2^2)-1
4-1
3

Putting 3 into the treasure equation gives 90*3*4+30=1110.

The formulas converting back and forth between EL and CR are just based on your two definitions; that CR 1=EL 1, and doubling the CR increases the EL by +4. They are

EL = 1+4*log2(CR)

and

CR = 2^((EL-1)/4)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

Just want to correct you on that, UK.

For a moderate encounter, PCs always earn 75xp x Character Level.

They aren't earning more treasure for being higher level, they are earning more treasure because a moderate encounter, for them, is a higher EL.

They are fighting tougher creatures, and they get more treasure, and this is true regardless of what CR, EL, and Treasure system you're using.

Lets see.

Great Wyrm Red Dragon CR 62/EL 24

vs. Four 30th-level Characters (EL +/-0 encounter)

300 EXP x 30 Levels x 4 = 36,000 Total EXP converts to 1,306,830 gp Treasure

OR

Great Wyrm Red Dragon CR 62/EL 24

vs. Single 60th-level character (EL +/-0 encounter)

1200 x 60 levels = 72,000 EXP converts to 5,205,630 gp Treasure

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Not surprising. I left out a -1.

No wonder I couldn't bloody get it!

Here's my explanation: your treasure formula gives the appropriate treasure for a party of level n. You just calculate 90*n*(n+1)+30. I wanted to find out what the EL of an appropriate challenge to an nth level party, and assign it that treasure value.

Given a standard array, each member of the party will have a CR of n+1. 4 party members, so the total CR is 4n+4. I converted that into EL through the formula EL=1+4*log2(CR) and subtracted 4 to find the party EL(because there were 4 creatures in the group) and then subtracted 4 again (because a moderate encounter is 4 below the party EL) obtaining

(1+4*log2(4n+4))-8

Which is the same as

(1+4(log2(n+1)+2))-8

equals

1+4*log2(n+1)+8-8

And the 8s cancel, obtaining 1+4*log2(n+1). For example, for a first level party (n=1), a moderate encounter is

1+4*log2(1+1)=1+4*log2(2)=1+4*1=EL 5

The "n" in the formula is what is put into the treasure formula. Given EL=1+4*log2(n+1), you solve for n by the following:

EL = 1+4*log2(n+1)
EL-1 = 4*log2(n+1)
(EL-1)/4 = log2(n+1)
2^(EL-1)/4 = n+1
(2^(EL-1)/4)-1 = n

Okay, I'll take your word for all of the above and save myself the bother of reverse engineering it.

This is the formula I should have quoted. (2^(EL-1)/4)-1 is what gets put into the treasure formula.

So if EL=9 we get

(2^(9-1)/4)-1
(2^8/4)-1
(2^2)-1
4-1
3

Putting 3 into the treasure equation gives 90*3*4+30=1110.

The formulas converting back and forth between EL and CR are just based on your two definitions; that CR 1=EL 1, and doubling the CR increases the EL by +4. They are

EL = 1+4*log2(CR)

and

CR = 2^((EL-1)/4)

I understand all this bit.

Though don't you mean CR = 2^((EL-1)/4)-1 at the end there?

 

[Anubis]

CRGreathouse: It makes sense by the rules whether it fits your simulation macro/micro junk or not. This game is not a math equation nor is it calculus. There is one goal and one goal only, that being balancing wealth earned to XP earned, period. How the hobgoblins divide treasure is a moot point and doesn't matter in the game itself.

EL X should yield Treasure Level X, regardless of the number of creatures.

Also, the PDF states outright that hobgoblins are CR 1.5, so I don't know where you got your number from.

UK: My treasure by EL IS fixed. Where do you get it being relative? EL 8 always yields the same treasure no matter who faces it. All the other equations are what give treasure away in relative manners. That brings me to . . .

Wulf: You CAN'T give out treasure DIRECTLY on XP because then the SAME encounter yields DIFFERENT amounts for different party levels! That's just stupid! Every encounter (NOT creature, though) should have a fixed amount of treasure to give. EL 1 is X amount, EL 2 is X amount, and so on and so forth.

Cheiromancer: Such equations have no place in D&D because 99.9% of people don't understand such equations, myself included, and I was in honors math!

 

[CRGreathouse]

CRGreathouse: It makes sense by the rules whether it fits your simulation macro/micro junk or not.

So... the point of D&D isn't to simulate a world and have fun, it's to divide treasure? That seems backward to me.

U_K: Yes, I would support a system like your 'treasure by CR' system, though I might use a different formula. I agree with your basic premise.

Also, the PDF states outright that hobgoblins are CR 1.5, so I don't know where you got your number from.

As U_K mentioned above, his most recent version (v.5) shows hobgoblins as CR 1.25, EL 2.

Wulf: You CAN'T give out treasure DIRECTLY on XP because then the SAME encounter yields DIFFERENT amounts for different party levels! That's just stupid! Every encounter (NOT creature, though) should have a fixed amount of treasure to give. EL 1 is X amount, EL 2 is X amount, and so on and so forth.

Wait, hobgoblins can have different amounts of treasure based on how many there are in their group, but not on how powerful the party is? Now that's odd logic. Neither one makes logical sense, and both are designed to improve game balance (albeit inelegantly, in my opinion).

Cheiromancer: Such equations have no place in D&D because 99.9% of people don't understand such equations, myself included, and I was in honors math!

The equations can be used to design a system without being used in the final system. Basic equations guide base attack and base saves, bigger equations guide bonus spells by ability scores and XP charts, and bigger ones yet cover Str lifting tables and XP per monster. None of these need to be understood to play the game... they're just charts to most players.

Let the people with college math degrees figure out the best formulas, if they're too complicated. Just follow their charts.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Also, the PDF states outright that hobgoblins are CR 1.5, so I don't know where you got your number from.

Please don't argue over the Golden and Silver rule applications. By default I would always use the Silver Rule because I find that to be more accurate, but each is viable.

UK: My treasure by EL IS fixed. Where do you get it being relative? EL 8 always yields the same treasure no matter who faces it.

Its both fixed and relative; in that the treasure is relative to the average amount over the ELs CR spread.