D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Leopold mate!

is ver 4.1 out yet?

I have versions 4.1 through 4.5 on my hard drive, but at the moment I am working towards v5.

Unfortunately these latest wranglings over Treasure and now Experience Points have interupted the release of what should *touches wood* be the final, last ever CR/EL system...from me at any rate.

It certainly won't get done tonight (because I am off to see Return of the King); I will see whether everything currently makes sense tomorrow.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

It certainly won't get done tonight (because I am off to see Return of the King); I will see whether everything currently makes sense tomorrow.

Have fun with the movie - it's absolutely great!

Since you are just about to finish the CR document, I have a few minor issues that I'm certain you've got totally under control, but nevertheless:

You rate Fey HD as 0.5 CR. However, I keep getting it at 0.5721:
Ability Scores +5%
BAB as Wizard +10%
Feats +7.66%
HD d6 +11.65%
Simple weapon Prof. +1%
Saves (2 good, 1 bad) +15%
Skill points (6+int) +6.9%

= 57.21%. So shouldn't Fey rate as 0.55/HD? as a side note, outsiders according to the MM are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. This brings their total to 76.86%, so they should rate at 0.75/HD or what?

Don't worry, I'm not even close to suggesting you revise all the CRs yet again. I just want to know if I'm mistaken or not and if that is the case, how.

And lastly, do you think that integrated spellcasting should rate the same after 20th lvl, where the only benefits are a higher caster lvl. Surely, it's not as great a boon as earlier lvls.
A house rule that might work is to give creatures with caster lvls above 20 feats equal to what a similar spellcaster would get as epic benefit, i.e. a demon casing spell as a 27th lvl sorcerer gets two bonus feats from the sorcerer list in the EHL; one from 23rd lvl and one from 26th.
Or do you have something up your sleve in the IH that deals with this problem?

See ya, mate

 

[ciaran00]

And lastly, do you think that integrated spellcasting should rate the same after 20th lvl, where the only benefits are a higher caster lvl. Surely, it's not as great a boon as earlier lvls.

And epic spells? What prevents a Balor with wizard levels from getting feats as well? A higher caster level is integral to success as an epic caster, isn't it?

ciaran

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Sorcica mate!

Have fun with the movie - it's absolutely great!

Yes! It was truly fantastic.

Since you are just about to finish the CR document, I have a few minor issues that I'm certain you've got totally under control, but nevertheless:

You rate Fey HD as 0.5 CR. However, I keep getting it at 0.5721:
Ability Scores +5%
BAB as Wizard +10%
Feats +7.66%
HD d6 +11.65%
Simple weapon Prof. +1%
Saves (2 good, 1 bad) +15%
Skill points (6+int) +6.9%

= 57.21%. So shouldn't Fey rate as 0.55/HD? as a side note, outsiders according to the MM are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. This brings their total to 76.86%, so they should rate at 0.75/HD or what?

Don't worry, I'm not even close to suggesting you revise all the CRs yet again. I just want to know if I'm mistaken or not and if that is the case, how.

I am torn between making the Ability Scores +2.5% or 5%.

Thats probably the reason for any discrepancy.

See the Epic Feats which increase ability scores only do so by +1 point whereas I would allow an ability score raising feat to add +2 points (since +10 points = +1 CR).

So its a bit of a quandary. I would probably allow +2 for natural increases (up to racial limits); but +1 after that.

So +2 would mean the +5 over 20 HD/Levels (+1/4) would be +2.5% (equivalent to 2 1/2 feats); whereas rating it +1 would mean the +5 was worth +5%.

And lastly, do you think that integrated spellcasting should rate the same after 20th lvl, where the only benefits are a higher caster lvl. Surely, it's not as great a boon as earlier lvls. A house rule that might work is to give creatures with caster lvls above 20 feats equal to what a similar spellcaster would get as epic benefit, i.e. a demon casing spell as a 27th lvl sorcerer gets two bonus feats from the sorcerer list in the EHL; one from 23rd lvl and one from 26th. Or do you have something up your sleve in the IH that deals with this problem?

I will be trying to balance my new Spellcasting Rules with current Integrated Spellcasting.

But I would agree you probably need to change the figure for Integrated Spellcasting if you are just using the core/epic rules.

See ya, mate

Take care mate!

 

[Upper_Krust]

How does this sound? (Treasure)

Hi all!

Okay I think I have the EXP problem sorted.

Also the relative Treasure by EXP method is now flawless - though I know some of you would prefer a fixed rather than relative method.

What do you think of this for a 'fixed' Treasure method:

90 x CR x (CR +1) + 30 (as per previous Treasure by CR method)...

...for multiple creatures you total all individual results; however, you halve all secondary results for groups of the same creatures.

Personally I may just run with the Treasure by CR method (maybe even without this latest caveat) as it initially stands, and add the Treasure by EXP method as optional.

While the Treasure by CR method gives you a discrepancy between multiple and single monsters of the same EL; you could actually use that discrepancy to take into account the surplus wealth used by Party expenditure throughout the course of their adventures.

Also I may make a poll (later today) to ask how many people support the Silver Rule idea in this CR/EL system; and remove it if a strong majority vote against it.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hi all!

Okay I think I have the EXP problem sorted.

Also the relative Treasure by EXP method is now flawless - though I know some of you would prefer a fixed rather than relative method.

How about a recap of the "flawless" method?

Also I may make a poll (later today) to ask how many people support the Silver Rule idea in this CR/EL system; and remove it if a strong majority vote against it.

Hmm... I thought I was the lone voice crying in the wilderness on that one. I would be surprised if a majority voted for it, let alone a "strong majority." I guess we'll see how my arguments sunk in.

Quick question about the SIZE factors in v5: They DO now account for ability score and natural armor increases? So if you increase the size to Large, for example, you've already "paid" for the adjustments to Str, Dex, Con, and nat. armor? You don't have to pay for them again at a later step-- right?

Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

How about a recap of the "flawless" method?

Well once you correct the EXP table you can generate Treasure by:

EXP* x ((EXP* + 300) ÷ 1000) + 30

*Total EXP

Hmm... I thought I was the lone voice crying in the wilderness on that one.

Nope.

I would be surprised if a majority voted for it, let alone a "strong majority." I guess we'll see how my arguments sunk in.

I'm guessing its going to be close to 50/50 myself.

Quick question about the SIZE factors in v5: They DO now account for ability score and natural armor increases? So if you increase the size to Large, for example, you've already "paid" for the adjustments to Str, Dex, Con, and nat. armor? You don't have to pay for them again at a later step-- right?

You have a copy of the prototype v5 so you can see clearly on the Table I list the modifiers before AND after ability score modifiers.

So if you were to simply increase size and add size modifiers you could simply use the 'after ability scores totals'.

Just be careful not to add ability scores twice (which was the whole reason why there are two lists of figures on that table).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You have a copy of the prototype v5 so you can see clearly on the Table I list the modifiers before AND after ability score modifiers.

Whoops! I was actually looking at the .doc file you sent me-- I thought column 2 was still "No CON."

Wulf

 

[Cheiromancer]

I was looking at the class breakdowns in the design parameters section (appendix 3), and I was struck by how little the spellcasting ability of rangers and paladins are worth. .002, compared to .015 for a bard, or 0.044 for a wizard. I can understand it being worth say, half as much as a bard, but 13% as much? .002 is only two feats; surely a paladin's spellcasting is worth more than that?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

I was looking at the class breakdowns in the design parameters section (appendix 3), and I was struck by how little the spellcasting ability of rangers and paladins are worth. .002, compared to .015 for a bard, or 0.044 for a wizard. I can understand it being worth say, half as much as a bard, but 13% as much? .002 is only two feats; surely a paladin's spellcasting is worth more than that?

Remember of course that this is averaged over the course of 20 levels.

Also surely its +0.02/Level...?