D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[CRGreathouse]

Incidently Quickness should be +0.5.

That seems really, really low.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

That seems really, really low.

Well it only bestows an additional standard action (ie. one attack).

Thats a lot different from something like 'Dual Actions'.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!



Well it only bestows an additional standard action (ie. one attack).

Thats a lot different from something like 'Dual Actions'.

Since in your system CR adjustment ~= ECL adjustment...!

Would you allow a (LA +1) PC race that's like a human, but 3 bonus feats (+0.4 above human) instead of 1, +2 skill points instead of +1 (+0.1 above human), and Quickness (+0.5)? That's crazy!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

Since in your system CR adjustment ~= ECL adjustment...!

Would you allow a (LA +1) PC race that's like a human, but 3 bonus feats (+0.4 above human) instead of 1, +2 skill points instead of +1 (+0.1 above human), and Quickness (+0.5)? That's crazy!

I don't really think it is crazy, that said, I double checked the Immortals Handbook and I do have a Divine Gift very similar to this (which would be equivalent to +1 CR).

Another point is that in 3.5 the speed weapon enchantment is +3 (which is the equivalent to 3 feats; or +0.6).

With the Choker its only really getting another 1d3 to be fair; so thats really only a +0.2 for it.

Obviously if a PC had access to such an ability they could potentially abuse it; I mean its much better for someone who wields a greatsword (say); than someone who wields a shortsword (for instance).

So its really impossible to give it a fixed rating that covers all situations; so you just have to take the best average.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

So its really impossible to give it a fixed rating that covers all situations; so you just have to take the best average.

I hesitate to open myself up to criticism from the Master...

But I did exactly this already with the calculations for Full Attack. Since you are counting "dice only" in the damage calculation, it seemed easier just to apply a flat rate for additional primary (full BAB) and secondary (BAB -5) attacks.

I don't think it will significantly throw off the calculations anywhere-- if anywhere, at low CR monsters (those who suffer from having their cost raised to the average), but I tend to think that an additional attack is more valuable to a low CR monster anyway.

Wulf

 

[CRGreathouse]

Would you allow a (LA +1) PC race that's like a human, but 3 bonus feats (+0.4 above human) instead of 1, +2 skill points instead of +1 (+0.1 above human), and Quickness (+0.5)? That's crazy!

I don't really think it is crazy, that said, I double checked the Immortals Handbook and I do have a Divine Gift very similar to this (which would be equivalent to +1 CR).

Another point is that in 3.5 the speed weapon enchantment is +3 (which is the equivalent to 3 feats; or +0.6).

With the Choker its only really getting another 1d3 to be fair; so thats really only a +0.2 for it.

Sure, it's not that great for the choker -- above, I mentioned the need for a sliding scale in the 'perfect' system. Still, the race I mentioned should be closer to ECL +3 than +1 IMO -- surely not less than +2. Compare a Ftr4 with this to a Ftr5 or Ftr6 without -- similar attack bonuses thanks to the feats, more skills, etc. It gets worse with higher levels, and it's exceptional for spellcasters now that 3.0 haste is gone.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

Hope you have been keeping well over the holidays and not working too hard.

I hesitate to open myself up to criticism from the Master...

...you mean the Dr Who villain!?

But I did exactly this already with the calculations for Full Attack. Since you are counting "dice only" in the damage calculation, it seemed easier just to apply a flat rate for additional primary (full BAB) and secondary (BAB -5) attacks.

I don't think it will significantly throw off the calculations anywhere-- if anywhere, at low CR monsters (those who suffer from having their cost raised to the average), but I tend to think that an additional attack is more valuable to a low CR monster anyway.

I think (if I am reading you right?) then this is what I used to do back in the days of v1-AAAH*.

*Joke for any wrestling fans out there.

However, I think its certainly erroneous when applied to monsters, but I think you are assuming you can 'get away with it' - which is fair enough.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

Would you allow a (LA +1) PC race that's like a human, but 3 bonus feats (+0.4 above human) instead of 1, +2 skill points instead of +1 (+0.1 above human), and Quickness (+0.5)? That's crazy!

Sure, it's not that great for the choker -- above, I mentioned the need for a sliding scale in the 'perfect' system. Still, the race I mentioned should be closer to ECL +3 than +1 IMO -- surely not less than +2. Compare a Ftr4 with this to a Ftr5 or Ftr6 without -- similar attack bonuses thanks to the feats, more skills, etc. It gets worse with higher levels, and it's exceptional for spellcasters now that 3.0 haste is gone.

Theres no way the Quickness ability is more than +1 CR, thats certainly its upper limit.

If we add your other suggestions we therefore get a total of +1.5 ECL, which of course is still +1 ECL.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

However, I think its certainly erroneous when applied to monsters, but I think you are assuming you can 'get away with it' - which is fair enough.

Yep, I am assuming I can "get away with it."

Part of my rationale for it was that I think the extra attacks are what should be counted, not the damage potential itself. It just doesn't make sense to me that a giant can suddenly lose several points of CR because he puts away his sword and starts punching.

Character BAB isn't valued based on the average damage potential-- why should monsters?

I went with Mike Mearls' suggestion from the Monster's Handbook, which is basically this: 2 attacks at full BAB are free. Each extra full attack is valued at 0.5, each iterative attack at 0.25.


Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Does anybody have an updated EXCEL file yet?

I'm ready to offer compensation if someone will finish the goddamned thing for me.


Wulf