D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[CRGreathouse]

Now all that's out on the table-- what exactly is the problem?

There's no problem between the bear and ape, since they have the same Str multipliers. They just provided a convenient example of differing damage values at the same size--I'm sure I could find a wider spread if I tried.

The problem is that x1.5 is rated the same as x1, and sometimes even x0.5 (c.f. a dragon's tail slap and a green slaad's bite).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

A creature with two or more primary attacks gets x1 damage-- but it has a total potential damage output of x2. In UK's system it pays full price for each iteration of its damage dice.

A creature with secondary attacks adds only 50% of the Str bonus to damage. In UKs system, it pays 50% of the cost of a primary attack.

A creature with a single primary attack gets x1.5 Str bonus to damage. Under UK's system, it pays once for the base damage dice.

You might want to make the argument that the single primary attack creature gets a 50% bonus to damage "for free" but then, it only has one attack. It is less able to spread its damage around across its enemies-- I feel that's a wash in terms of CR. (The creature can only attack a single foe at a time and in many cases that extra damage will be "wasted." Against more than one opponent two attacks at x1 is superior to one attack at x1.5.)

All in all, it seems pretty well accounted for in UK's system, to me. If I've misunderstood your concerns again, I apologize, but you're going to have to be more forthcoming in explaining your examples.

Wulf

 

[Orco42]

A couple of quick questions.

Do you count factors gained from magic items when calculating a creatures CR? (ie You have an Amulet of Nat. Armor so +.1 CR) Or is this already factored in by the Equipment factor?

I would think that is not because under Ability Scores it says that you do not count ability increases due to magic items for CR increases (implying that you would count magic item abilities in other factors). Plus it is logical that some wealth should increase your CR and some should not (a million gp wont help you but magic items will).

If that is the case why count most equipment anyway (sure a MW weapon, and armor would help some but you would not need to factor in magic items, gold, or property)?

Also how would this system work for a character with the Vow of Poverty feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds? You rate all feats the same and this one is CLEARLY better that most. At level one you give up wealth and items (-.02), get a bonus feat (+.2), and +4 exalted bonus to ac (+.5).

So if all feats are the same and cost .2 CR then .2 = .5

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

A couple of quick questions.

Do you count factors gained from magic items when calculating a creatures CR? (ie You have an Amulet of Nat. Armor so +.1 CR) Or is this already factored in by the Equipment factor?

I would think that is not because under Ability Scores it says that you do not count ability increases due to magic items for CR increases (implying that you would count magic item abilities in other factors). Plus it is logical that some wealth should increase your CR and some should not (a million gp wont help you but magic items will).

If that is the case why count most equipment anyway (sure a MW weapon, and armor would help some but you would not need to factor in magic items, gold, or property)?

Also how would this system work for a character with the Vow of Poverty feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds? You rate all feats the same and this one is CLEARLY better that most. At level one you give up wealth and items (-.02), get a bonus feat (+.2), and +4 exalted bonus to ac (+.5).

So if all feats are the same and cost .2 CR then .2 = .5

Magic items etc. is covered by equipment. A monster's gold is just treasure. Don't know what UK will say about property?

Regarding the feats. Some feats are just better than others. (compare rapid shot and skill focus fx). I think the reason for this is due to the requirements for certain powerful prestige classes. If all feats were equally powerful/useful, there would be no 'sacrifice' in qualifying for a PrC.
But they are all feats anyway, and so should cost the same. If a rogue spends all his feats on skill focus: acting, leatherworking, singing etc. then the more power to him (well, no ) but would you start giving him different CR that another rogue of the same lvl?

I hope that answers your questions, UK might have some further comments.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Orco42 mate!

A couple of quick questions.

Sure fire away, the boards were very slow for me yesterday hence the delay, but I noticed Sorcica had already helped out (thanks Sorcica mate!)

Do you count factors gained from magic items when calculating a creatures CR? (ie You have an Amulet of Nat. Armor so +.1 CR) Or is this already factored in by the Equipment factor?

This is already handled in Equipment.

You total the cost of all Equipment. Then work out what PC level equipment thats equal to and its +0.2 per level of Equipment.

I would think that is not because under Ability Scores it says that you do not count ability increases due to magic items for CR increases (implying that you would count magic item abilities in other factors).

Yes, you don't count non-permanent Ability Score increases (from spells etc.). Ability Score increases from magic items are considered part of the Equipment factor.

Plus it is logical that some wealth should increase your CR and some should not (a million gp wont help you but magic items will).

Exactly.

If that is the case why count most equipment anyway (sure a MW weapon, and armor would help some but you would not need to factor in magic items, gold, or property)?

Neither Gold nor Property actually affect your CR (Though they would affect your ECL).

Say for example you hired mercenaries with your gold then you would factor the mercenaries, but not the gold.

Also how would this system work for a character with the Vow of Poverty feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds? You rate all feats the same and this one is CLEARLY better that most. At level one you give up wealth and items (-.02), get a bonus feat (+.2), and +4 exalted bonus to ac (+.5).

So if all feats are the same and cost .2 CR then .2 = .5

Yes but I think the Vows are special cases, many having multiple components. Vow of Poverty essentially gives you a feat per level (and two at 1st) to balance the lack of equipment.

 

[Kavon]

*bumps into topic once again*

Hey Kavon mate!

Hey U_K

Sorry for the late reply

I hope you mean Illinois and not the airport.

Yeah, Illinois It felt like I spent it on the airport after I got home though x__x

Well v5 is 99.9% finished. However the whole Treasure debacle just left a bad taste in my mouth and I haven't returned to it since.

I haven't made a decision yet on which of the various methods for determining Treasure to use; and since we have reached an impasse with no Treasure system being 'perfect' I may not update the system until the eventual Immortals Handbook Appendix.

Well, I'm just going to be lazy and not going to bother to see if you mentioned this already..
Anyway, did you find a method for determining treasure that felt right?

I've been putting that thing I was working on on hold for.. the last couple of month or so. I just got back to it again, and I'm stumbling on the whole treasure thing again. It just doesn't look right for some reason
Right now I'm trying to see if the spell XP costs that you suggested in that _very_ old email works out right
Did you ever find those notes btw?

Anyway, I better try figuring this stuff out.. o__o

*sometimes worders if these topics are meant to be found again*

 

[Upper_Krust]

*bumps into topic once again*

Hey U_K

Hi Kavon mate!

Sorry for the late reply

No worries, I wasn't really expecting one at this points.

Yeah, Illinois It felt like I spent it on the airport after I got home though

I know what thats like.

Well, I'm just going to be lazy and not going to bother to see if you mentioned this already..

Anyway, did you find a method for determining treasure that felt right?

I haven't went back to it as yet. I want to forget it and then return with a fresh perspective on the cusp of the IH release.

I've been putting that thing I was working on on hold for.. the last couple of month or so.

I remember.

I just got back to it again, and I'm stumbling on the whole treasure thing again. It just doesn't look right for some reason.

Sometimes leaving a problem and then returning to it can make it easier to solve.

Right now I'm trying to see if the spell XP costs that you suggested in that _very_ old email works out right
Did you ever find those notes btw?

No. Its a deluge of paper here, its really like looking for a needle in the proverbial haystack. I am sure it will turn up one day when I am looking for something else though.

I could probably reverse engineer it given a hour or two but if I am honest I really don't want to, I just want to leave the whole sordid mess behind.

Anyway, I better try figuring this stuff out.

Have fun!

*sometimes worders if these topics are meant to be found again*

I won't be shedding any tears; for me familiarity bred contempt. I am happy with the results (treasure notwithstanding), just not the trials and tribulations of getting there.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I *know* I should let sleeping dogs lie, but I want to raise the question of paladin and ranger spellcasting. They are each worth +0.02 CR/level, or +0.4 CR over 20 levels. A feat is worth +0.01 CR/level, or +0.2 CR over 20 levels.

Is the spellcasting ability of a 20th level Paladin or Ranger worth only two feats?

I suggest +0.07 CR/level. Only half as much as a bard, and it makes the final value of the paladin come out to be 1.1551, while the ranger is 1.2021. Well in line with the other character classes, and it makes their spellcasting worth a more reasonable 7 feats over 20 levels.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I *know* I should let sleeping dogs lie, but I want to raise the question of paladin and ranger spellcasting. They are each worth +0.02 CR/level, or +0.4 CR over 20 levels. A feat is worth +0.01 CR/level, or +0.2 CR over 20 levels.

Is the spellcasting ability of a 20th level Paladin or Ranger worth only two feats?

I suggest +0.07 CR/level. Only half as much as a bard, and it makes the final value of the paladin come out to be 1.1551, while the ranger is 1.2021. Well in line with the other character classes, and it makes their spellcasting worth a more reasonable 7 feats over 20 levels.

.07 looks high to me. .03, or maybe .05, would be more reasonable -- but .07 just overrates their spellcasting, especially in 3.5 (with changes to holy sword and all).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Cheiromancer mate!

Apologies for the slowness of my reply but the blame falls fully on the boards ist just been a nightmare tonight, especially the House Rules Forum for some reason. Anyway...

I *know* I should let sleeping dogs lie, but I want to raise the question of paladin and ranger spellcasting.

Sure, fire away mate!

They are each worth +0.02 CR/level, or +0.4 CR over 20 levels. A feat is worth +0.01 CR/level, or +0.2 CR over 20 levels.

Is the spellcasting ability of a 20th level Paladin or Ranger worth only two feats?

According to my research yes.

I suggest +0.07 CR/level. Only half as much as a bard, and it makes the final value of the paladin come out to be 1.1551, while the ranger is 1.2021. Well in line with the other character classes, and it makes their spellcasting worth a more reasonable 7 feats over 20 levels.

Remember not only is the Ranger/Paladin spell level capped lower than the bards; the spell list is also notably smaller, and they also only cast at half their level!