D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Knight Otu mate!

I figure this would be the right thread for this...

Some of you might be aware of BOZ's and my Creature by Poll series down in the Creature Catalog forums, and currently, we are creating a dragon that is truly powerful. I've gone over the dragon's powers with UK's pdf and an Excel file, but I had to find out that the file has suffered from "updating" it to a newer excel version. I calculated the first few CRs, but from a certain point, I just winged it as using the file was more of a hindrance than a help. If someone would look over the Challege Ratings, and maybe the wyrmling LA, I would be thankful.

Well the quick way to determine Dragon CRs is to do just the Wyrmling and the Great Wyrm and then take the average for all the ages in between.

eg. If a Red Wyrmling is CR 8 and a Great Wyrm Red is CR 62 then every age in between is going to increase (on average) about 5 points.

 

[Knight Otu]

Thanks, UK!
I used a similar method after I saw how horribly mangled my file was, seeing that each age category was about 2 CR, 3 if there was also a size increase.

I guess I should note that I use WotC CRs here.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Thanks, UK!
I used a similar method after I saw how horribly mangled my file was, seeing that each age category was about 2 CR, 3 if there was also a size increase.

I guess I should note that I use WotC CRs here.

He he. The principle should remain the same. Just halve my CRs to ge WotC (Dragon) CRs.

 

[Knight Otu]

I'm actually thinking of dropping one or two points in addition to that - not because I don't trust your work, but because even the halved CRs of the dragons are higher than the official ones, and I want them to seem more in line with the official ones.

I mean, even so, someone will come and yell, "Hey, those CRs are much much higher than those of the dragons in the MM! What were you *******!"

Of course, the CRs are rightfully higher. You'll know what I'm talking about if you looked at the dragon.

 

[Zoatebix]

I've been using the Design Parameters section on page 19 as a guide to help me modify, break down, create, and otherwise mess with classes and class abilities. I've been able to replicate U_K's work on Table 3-1 for all classes except for Monk, which seems to have more class features than U_K's numbers indicate. Diamond soul alone is worth 10 feats (2.0CR for SR30 divided over the course of 20 levels is 10%), right? I've looked at it from a few angles, but I just can't seem to make it right. Can anyone deconstruct the monk class for me?
Thanks,
-George

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Zoatebix! (and hey Knight Otu matey!)

I've been using the Design Parameters section on page 19 as a guide to help me modify, break down, create, and otherwise mess with classes and class abilities. I've been able to replicate U_K's work on Table 3-1 for all classes except for Monk, which seems to have more class features than U_K's numbers indicate. Diamond soul alone is worth 10 feats (2.0CR for SR30 divided over the course of 20 levels is 10%), right? I've looked at it from a few angles, but I just can't seem to make it right. Can anyone deconstruct the monk class for me?
Thanks,
-George

Okay I must have this written down somewhere, allow me to hunt for the appropriate information and I will get back to you later tonight.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

I've been using the Design Parameters section on page 19 as a guide to help me modify, break down, create, and otherwise mess with classes and class abilities. I've been able to replicate U_K's work on Table 3-1 for all classes except for Monk, which seems to have more class features than U_K's numbers indicate. Diamond soul alone is worth 10 feats (2.0CR for SR30 divided over the course of 20 levels is 10%), right? I've looked at it from a few angles, but I just can't seem to make it right. Can anyone deconstruct the monk class for me?
Thanks,
-George

Okay I think I see the discrepancy.

When I was detailing the Monk class breakdown I corrected Diamond Soul because its only gained at 13th-level. So in essence I was taking the average rating for that ability over the 20 levels.

Whether this was a good idea or not is debateable.

However, looking at my notes it seems I rated it at about 3.5 feats instead of 10.

Does it make more sense of your breakdown to add the equivalent of 6.5 feats?

 

[Zoatebix]

Yay! That certainly helps, but I don't think I'm on the same page as you just yet. Here's my work so far:

Okay - we start with 111.56% - take away 20 for equipment and 12.66 for the ability increases and feats all characters get (78.9%). Base attack bonus (15), hit dice (15), 3 good saves (18), attacks (one plus two iterative for 5) leaves us with 19.7%.

Here are the remaining factors I think I know how to calculate: 3 bonus feats (3%), evasion and improved evasion (2%), unarmerd strike (1%), bonus unarmed damage (from 1d3 -the normal for a medium creature - to 2d10 by 20th level is an average increase of 9 damge, or 4.5 weapon specializations), defense bonus (2%), flurry and greater flurry (2% maybe?), fast movement (it's 2 doublings of 30ft for 2 feats' worth)and diamond soul (3.5%).

That leaves 1.7% for weapon proficiencies, pure-diamond-whole-and-timeless body, etherealness, slow fall, abundant step, still mind, tongue of the sun and moon, quivering palm, ki strike, and perfect self. The DR alone from perfect self should be worth 1.65%, right?

Are perfect self or any other features discounted in a similar manner to diamond soul?

Thanks for helping me out! I can't wait to see the immortal's handbook.
-George

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yay! That certainly helps, but I don't think I'm on the same page as you just yet. Here's my work so far:

Okay - we start with 111.56% - take away 20 for equipment and 12.66 for the ability increases and feats all characters get (78.9%). Base attack bonus (15), hit dice (15), 3 good saves (18), attacks (one plus two iterative for 5) leaves us with 19.7%.

Here are the remaining factors I think I know how to calculate: 3 bonus feats (3%), evasion and improved evasion (2%), unarmerd strike (1%), bonus unarmed damage (from 1d3 -the normal for a medium creature - to 2d10 by 20th level is an average increase of 9 damge, or 4.5 weapon specializations), defense bonus (2%), flurry and greater flurry (2% maybe?), fast movement (it's 2 doublings of 30ft for 2 feats' worth)and diamond soul (3.5%).

That leaves 1.7% for weapon proficiencies, pure-diamond-whole-and-timeless body, etherealness, slow fall, abundant step, still mind, tongue of the sun and moon, quivering palm, ki strike, and perfect self. The DR alone from perfect self should be worth 1.65%, right?

Are perfect self or any other features discounted in a similar manner to diamond soul?

Heres my list:

3 Bonus Feats = +3
Flurry = N/A
Unarmed Strike = N/A
Bonus Unarmed Damage = N/A
Evasion = +1
Still Mind = +0.33
Ki Strike = N/A
Slow Fall = +0.33
Speed = +1
AC = +2
Purity = +0.5
Healing = +0.5
Improved Evasion = +1
Diamond Body = +1
Greater Flurry = +1
Abundant Step = +0.33
Diamond Soul = +3.5
Quivering Palm = +0.5
Timeless Body = +0.5
Tongue of Sun and Moon = +1
Empty Body = +1
Perfect Self = +1

Some are N/A because they only offset bonuses that would be gained through wielding magic weapons.

Thanks for helping me out!

Anytime mate!

I can't wait to see the immortal's handbook.

Hey thanks!

 

[Zoatebix]

I was close, but I don't think I would have figured that out without your help - definately a bit more complicated than Rogue ("Okay, we've got 18% left, and 18 class features on the table - yay!"). Thank you so much!

Now I can get back to playing around with supernatural martial arts classes! Time to start breaking down Monte's Oathsworn...
-G