D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Kerrick]

Ahh. Question: What do you with a spell system that goes above 9th-level spells (like, as someone mentioned, metamagic spells, or the level-based epic spell system our group uses)?

Not sure I understand the question mate?

Is this a question about the Immortals Handbook?

I was referring to spell immunity. What if you have a system (like the one I've got written up) that allows for spells above 9th level - not just slots for metamagic, but actual spells? It would necessarily increase the modifier for total spell immunity, unless the ability means that the creature is NOT immune to epic spells (which, incidentally, I think would have to be the case, since there's no level cap to the spells in our system).

Oh for goodness sake!

You can't please all the people all the time.

Yeah, yeah. I'm an editor, and a perfectionist - what can I say?

Okay, I may just be dense or something, but I'm still having problems with the EL system. Example: I tallied up an encounter with 5 average salamanders (CR 6). Total CR: 30 (EL 20), with an adjustment of +4 (5 creatures), for a total of EL 24?? That doesn't sound right.. the DMG says it's EL 11, which sounds closer to the mark.

Another example: 20 wights (CR 3): total CR 60 (EL 20), adjustment +8. EL 28? A mid-level cleric could blast them all before they did any real damage, as could a mid-levle mage with a couple fireballs.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

But the doppelganger would always have higher stats than a pc with equal base scores.

How would it?

Yes. But it is difficult to judge from your list of CRs what factors have been included and which that haven't. So one has to doublecheck, especially when it comes to ECL.

If you want it to be more accurate, then yes.

Does this mean that you wouldn't rate a +6 modifier for a medium size monster, since this is well within the luck range of a PC?

I don't understand.

Okay. If I roll up a character using the 4d6 method I could end up with six 18's (unlikely I know but bear with me). Whereas if I choose the standard array I have an average of 10.5. So that means I could roll up a character with 45 points more than the standard array.

If I was detailing a monster I wouldn't rate ability scores (except where I already say I do: in things like Templates; Size; Traits etc.) unless they were

I don't get your meaning.

Well PCs don't all have the same ability scores but they are still all +1 Level = +1 CR.

So it is adviceable to doublecheck if using a monster as a character?

I would just recreate it as a Template/Traits.

Please elaborate. If using a average, shouldn't it be +1 CR for 10 lvls then?

Yes. If we rate the traits its going to be Traits +0.1/level more than 1st*

*since spell resistance at 1st-level is already rated.

See ya.

Cheerio.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

How would it?

You illustrate it yourself with your example below:

Okay. If I roll up a character using the 4d6 method I could end up with six 18's (unlikely I know but bear with me). Whereas if I choose the standard array I have an average of 10.5. So that means I could roll up a character with 45 points more than the standard array.

If you rolled six 18's and you wanted to play a doppelganger, you would have far better scores than even the PC that rolled straight 18's. Therefore a doppelganger would always have better stats than a character with the same base stats.
Shouldn't this be rated? Of course it should be rated if you using the monster as a PC, but what about monster encounter CR? Going by your logic, you could meet a medium size monster with all 18's and CR wouldn't be affected because conceivably a PC could have rolled the same. Do I get it right if I think that you mean that if you use a monster as is, i.e. 10 and 11's, don't adjust for stat modifiers except size etc., and if using a monster with 'rolled' stats, adjust for racial modifiers?

Well PCs don't all have the same ability scores but they are still all +1 Level = +1 CR.

But a race of superbeings with +10 to all stats would be +6 CR even if they don't rolled the same stats. Far superior to core races. But you wouldn't rate this, except if someone wanted to play one of these things?

Cheerio.

Cheers.

Edit: I think I'm having bigger and bigger problems with the ability scores not being factored in CR as listed.
Take the succubus. If she had a 10 in charisma her spell like abilities isn't all that frightening. But she has 26 and she becomes extremely dangerous. Shouldn't this be reflected in CR?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

I was referring to spell immunity. What if you have a system (like the one I've got written up) that allows for spells above 9th level - not just slots for metamagic, but actual spells? It would necessarily increase the modifier for total spell immunity, unless the ability means that the creature is NOT immune to epic spells (which, incidentally, I think would have to be the case, since there's no level cap to the spells in our system).

I would agree with the latter. Such a creature is not immune to epic spells. But just as they have no limit; neither does Spell Immunity.

Yeah, yeah. I'm an editor, and a perfectionist - what can I say?

Okay, I may just be dense or something, but I'm still having problems with the EL system. Example: I tallied up an encounter with 5 average salamanders (CR 6). Total CR: 30 (EL 20), with an adjustment of +4 (5 creatures), for a total of EL 24?? That doesn't sound right.. the DMG says it's EL 11, which sounds closer to the mark.

CR 6 = EL 11 (as per Table 2-1)
5 Creatures = EL +4 (as per Table 2-3)
Final EL 15

EL 15 is a moderate encounter for a 12th-level party (PEL 15) or a 50/50 encounter for a 6th-level party (PEL 11).

Another example: 20 wights (CR 3): total CR 60 (EL 20), adjustment +8. EL 28? A mid-level cleric could blast them all before they did any real damage, as could a mid-levle mage with a couple fireballs.

CR 3 = EL 7 (as per Table 2-1)
20 creatures = EL +8 (as per Table 2-3)
Final EL 15

EL 15 is a moderate encounter for a 12th-level party (PEL 15) or a 50/50 encounter for a 6th-level party (PEL 11).

If that doesn't help I will take you through it in more detail.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Wulf mate!

Nah. The "luck factor" of a PCs ability scores only happens ONCE, at character creation. Beyond that, all ability increases should be attributable to level advances and equipment, neh? It's not as if I have to constantly recalculate on the fly.

So if I know immediately after character creation that Jimmy the Fighter has above average scores (say, +1.2) then I can figure on that same increase forever. I know that his CR will always be 1.2 + Level + Equipment.

I can do the same thing across the whole party. If the whole party of four characters is similarly above average, I'll make sure that the monsters I throw at them are Total Party Level +4.8 CR per encounter, if I want to keep the PCs appropriately challenged.

Isn't that just the same thing only different!? Then again it might work, though it does all seem a bit fiddly.

You are applying a sort of phantom penalty to PCs, but you are going to have to reverse engineer second hand stats in case of equipment and templates and traits.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi seasong mate!

Lich seems to be off a bit - the lowest ECL lich possible is ECL 18, with an effective undead HD vs turning of 15. At the very minimum, turn resistance should be upped for the lich, so he has the vaguest possibility of surviving an encounter with a similar ECL cleric.

On top of that, however... the lich, at +4 ECL, gives up two levels worth of spells for a few extra abilities. At +7 ECL, it's no longer even vaguely worth it. It would be like a wizard reaching 11th level and saying, "You know? I've done about all I want to with magic. I think I'll spend the next 7 levels as a Fighter!"... except that the wizard/fighter would get more hit points. And an improved BAB. And 4 fighter feats .

The problem, I think, is that the lich has quite a few low-power abilities, and no high-power abilities at all - the result is a creature who, at +7 ECL, isn't quite good enough at anything (but who, at +4 ECL, has a few more options than it probably should).

All those minor abilities do tend to add up though.

The Lich template is ECL 6 after the Silver Rule...does that help a little?

If the template is wrong it must mean some of the factors are wrong...any guesses which?

 

[CRGreathouse]

If the template is wrong it must mean some of the factors are wrong...any guesses which?

It's only a small part of the lich, but I'd say that skill bonuses are overvalued -- they're probably only worth .01 instead of .02.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Conceivably, a better solution would be to grant virtual spellcasting levels, a la a prestige class, to the Lich template. They're valued low enough that you might be able to add them in without boosting the CR too much.

 

[seasong]

All those minor abilities do tend to add up though.

The Lich template is ECL 6 after the Silver Rule...does that help a little?

If the template is wrong it must mean some of the factors are wrong...any guesses which?

Honestly, I think the factors are fine, but that the lich template is designed with an end ECL of +4 in mind. Bump turn resistance to +7, maybe give some DC boosts to the special abilities, and it starts to look all right again.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

You illustrate it yourself with your example below:

If you rolled six 18's and you wanted to play a doppelganger, you would have far better scores than even the PC that rolled straight 18's. Therefore a doppelganger would always have better stats than a character with the same base stats.

Shouldn't this be rated? Of course it should be rated if you using the monster as a PC, but what about monster encounter CR? Going by your logic, you could meet a medium size monster with all 18's and CR wouldn't be affected because conceivably a PC could have rolled the same. Do I get it right if I think that you mean that if you use a monster as is, i.e. 10 and 11's, don't adjust for stat modifiers except size etc., and if using a monster with 'rolled' stats, adjust for racial modifiers?

I just don't think the majority of people will want that level of detail its not very intuitive.

But a race of superbeings with +10 to all stats would be +6 CR even if they don't rolled the same stats. Far superior to core races. But you wouldn't rate this, except if someone wanted to play one of these things Cheers.

Edit: I think I'm having bigger and bigger problems with the ability scores not being factored in CR as listed.
Take the succubus. If she had a 10 in charisma her spell like abilities isn't all that frightening. But she has 26 and she becomes extremely dangerous. Shouldn't this be reflected in CR?

If you rate them for monsters you have to rate them for PCs too. Thats the trade off you have to make.