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D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey Wulf mate! :)

Wulf Ratbane said:
Well, if it's going to be done this way, all ability scores need to be their own calculation.

And if a creature's racial ability modifiers total to more than +0, then yes, they should be counted.

Indeed.

Wulf Ratbane said:
The best way to calculate the ability score CR factor is to add them all up, subtract 63, and divide the result by 10.

Correct me if I'm wrong there, UK.

I don't do it like that, but whatever people find easiest. :)
 

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Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hi mate! :)

Sorcica said:
Yet another ECL question. :rolleyes:

Okay, Krust is saying that the Golden rule probably shouldn't be used on CR's when used as ECL.

But the silver rule rule should be used still. So shouldn't it say somewhere that the silver rule is applied to the base CR when determining ECL?

Later,

Edit: And shouldn't it say that the golden rule shouldn't be applied?

I'll make sure the new versions clarify the position. ;)
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey seasong mate! :)

seasong said:
I've started a thread for playing with Upper Krust's system. It is NOT a third thread to discuss whether or not the system needs fixing in some teeny tiny way. It's a sandbox to build castles in.

I've started things off with a bit of fun for the players in my upcoming D&D campaign (which will likely be starting next year), the Dark Contract template. As I have time, I will add other stuff as well (one thing I want to add is a domain realm of the Sun, and the winged humanoids that dwell there).

I had a brief read through, you already have a lot of interesting stuff in there. I'll read over it more carefully tomorrow when I have some time.

Nice to see the fruits of my labour paying off. :)
 

seasong

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Hey seasong mate! :)
Hey Upper Krust! :D

Upper_Krust said:
I had a brief read through, you already have a lot of interesting stuff in there. I'll read over it more carefully tomorrow when I have some time.
Cool :D. Although I don't want you to feel obligated - I'm just playing with stuff, and thought the folks here might want to play a bit, too.

Upper_Krust said:
Nice to see the fruits of my labour paying off. :)
Hurry up and publish! I gots money for ya.

That, and I don't want to use D&Dg + MotP to build the background of my setting.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Kavon said:
Woohoo, took me an hour to get here (at least) :eek:

Me too. :eek:

Kavon said:

Howdy! :)

Kavon said:
More questions I was thinking about.

How much would you deem suitable for additional attacks (not the iterative attacks)? Right now I've got it at 0.3, but I have the eerie feeling that that might be a bit low *looks around shoulder* o.o

+0.5

Kavon said:
I also had an idea on doing the HD and skill points..
I'm going to limit both to 1 per level (mostly because of skills), since if they'd be able to pick 2+Int more than once per level, no one would be taking 8+Int, since you'd get your Int bonus 4 times with 2+Int compared to the one time you get with 8+Int (it'll be about the same cost iirc). I'm still putting in the Skill ranks thing because if there wouldn't be any bonus on it from Int, it would decrease the effectiveness of the Int score. They can gain bonus skill points besides this though, just like I'm allowing for bonus HP besides the HD.

Okay.

Kavon said:
I'm gonna get going to my friends now, so I'll try to get back to this some other time.

Okay, interested to hear what they think of your idea.
 

Kavon

Explorer
Upper_Krust said:

Hey U_K :)

Upper_Krust said:
I always try to use the force. :p

Reasonable advice ;)

Upper_Krust said:
Isn't there a feat somewhere that gives you spell-like abilities?

Hmm... I seem to remember something being in one of the Forgotten Realms books... I'll have to check it out later (I'm at my friend's place right now).

Edit: Hmm... I had another thought today. About spellcasting.. I was thinking about making it that a player can select individual spells that he'd be able to cast (spells known, spells readied, spell slots, spell level. All of these would need to be ranked, with those first three split into the 9 spell levels somehow). I told one of my players about it, and he was enthusiastic about it. :)
This idea was mainly derived from some manga I'm reading at the moment (Naruto), where there are these ninja that use techniques/spells using their chakra (spiritual energy). This works with the ninja knowing a certain ability.. and I thought it would be a nice idea to have the character learn them individually in a similar way as that.
The only ploblem I see with that is characters being able to learn higher level spells (in theory). I know I could limit it, but, like with what I said some days ago, I'm not sure if it would really matter (they'd trade it off in exchange for other abilities). If I don't want a player to learn a certain ability yet, they just won't be able to find anyone to teach them..I guess. What do you think about this?
/edit

Upper_Krust said:
Okay.

Give me a list of the stuff you are unsure about.

Ok, I'll go through it on sunday (if I get the chance) and check out the abilities one at a time.

Upper_Krust said:
Okay, thats complicated and I can't remember exactly off hand, you'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Alright, I'm patient ;) Really appreciate it :)

Upper_Krust said:

(still didn't get a chance to through it. I'll try sunday)

Upper_Krust said:
If you are confident about it then I say go for it. Should be a useful exercise in player education anyway.

Once I get everything done, it should work well enough.

Upper_Krust said:
All seems straightforward to me.

:D

Upper_Krust said:

Hmm.. I hope everything is going okay with the server o.o

Upper_Krust said:

Ah, thanks! :) *notes down*

Upper_Krust said:
Okay, interested to hear what they think of your idea.

Well, I explained it to one of them (the other is out kickboxing right now), and he seems to think well of it :D
There was some hassle with the Wealth for XP thing, just like I expected (mainly because I feel the same), but I think I was able to explain why it was necesarry.

Edit: *is back home again* Ok, the other one shares ciaran00's opinion on XP (as I expected). But, I think(/hope) I got the point across well enough. Same hassle with the Wealth for XP thing (only allot more than with the other player). He likes the system though, so that's good.
We made a little quick test character with the stuff I already had. I'm now not really sure that ability score increases are correct at 0.1 CR, since the player rather put his points in his Str than in BAB (he boosted his Str from 15 to 20 in two levels, and only took one point of BAB), but, other than the ability scores, it looked great (for as far as we went).
Now I'll only need to have...
-The list of individual spell CR, and all that comes with it.
-A list of class abilities that players can pick on the fly (I think I'll make the list first, and check which ones I'm not sure about after that).
-The races for the base, and possible abilities branching from that (like that rage stuff I emailed you about some time ago).
After I'm done with those last three things, I think I'll be able to go try it out for real. :D
 
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CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
I came up with this (admittedly light-hearted) monster for a different thread and wanted to know what you thought of it. Your CR system put it at about 24000, but I think that's too high -- what do you think?

(Sorry about the lack of formatting; there's no convenient way to transfer this from Word.)

Tarrasque Swarm
Colossal Magical Beast (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 36000d10+972678 (1,170,678 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 50 ft
Armor Class: 3840 (–8 size, +7 Dex, +3830 natural, +1 haste), touch 10, flat-footed 3833
Base Attack/Grapple: +36000/—
Attack: Swarm (8d8)
Full Attack: Swarm (8d8)
Space/Reach: 1 mile/0 ft
Special Attacks: Distraction, frightful presence
Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 60/—, hive mind, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 5000, resistances, scent, spell resistance 14000, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +18035, Ref +18016, Will +12008
Abilities: Str 85, Dex 25, Con 65, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: Gather Information +4 (0), Jump +6037 (6000), Knowledge (nature) +599 (1½), Listen +6012 (6000), Search +6000 (6000), Spot +6012 (6000), Survival +6002 (6000) [+600 following tracks]
Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (swarm), Improved Overrun, Improved Unarmed Strike, Investigator, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Run, Toughness (6)
Epic Feats: Armor Skin (1900), Blinding Speed (2880), Damage Reduction (20), Dire Charge, Energy Resistance (acid) (15), Energy Resistance (cold) (15), Energy Resistance (electricity) (15), Energy Resistance (sonic) (15), Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Speed, Epic Toughness (33), Epic Will, Great Constitution (30), Great Dexterity (9), Great Strength (40), Improved Spell Resistance (6984), Penetrate Damage Reduction (adamantine, cold iron, mithral, silver, and any 6), Reflect Arrows, Superior Initiative

Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ~24000
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 18037 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Frightful Presence (Su): The tarrasque swarm can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 18012 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque swarm. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Carapace (Ex): The tarrasque swarm's armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.
Hive Mind (Ex): Any tarrasque swarm with at least 1 hit point per Hit Die (or 36000 hit points, for a standard tarrasque swarm) forms a hive mind, giving it an Intelligence of 6. When a tarrasque swarm is reduced below this hit point threshold, its Intelligence drops to 3.
Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque swarm. The tarrasque swarm regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a death effect. If the tarrasque swarm fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly, the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 1,170,688 hit points). The swarm is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.
The tarrasque swarm can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 1,170,688 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
Resistances: A tarrasque swarm’s epic feats give it resistance 150 to acid, cold, electricity, and sonic.
Skills: A tarrasque swarm has a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
 

kreynolds

First Post
UK,

This may have already been asked and answered, but why aren't Frightful Presence and Keen Senses part of the Dragon Traits? Don't all dragons have both of these abilities?
 

kreynolds

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Well what you want to do is match ECL (with Equipment) and Equipment Level.

So if something is CR 7 we know that adding seven levels of equipment will make it ECL 8.4 (7 + 1.4)*, we want to try it with eight levels of equipment.

UK,

The CR you have for a Mature Adult Copper Dragon (before silver rule) is 35 (rounded off, and I'm using this number for the sake of simplicity)...

CR 35
+35 levels of wealth (7) = 42

Now, you suggest that because the total CR increased, you should apply wealth again, right? So, I should apply wealth to the additional 7 levels?

+7 levels of wealth (1.4) = 43.4

However, the CR has increased yet again, so yet another application of wealth is necessary to round it off...

+1.4 levels of wealth (0.28) = 43.68

Now, application of the silver rule brings it down to a 40.

Is that how wealth (equipment) should work when calculating ECL? Just want to make sure I've got it right. The higher CRs were throwing me off. Also, did I apply the silver rule correctly?
 

kreynolds

First Post
Also, one more question. It's about Substituting Core Rules and CR. Most of your CRs convert over to two-thirds, but do you still recommend converting dragons over by one-half?

Just curious.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Kavon said:

Hiya mate! :

Kavon said:
Hmm... I seem to remember something being in one of the Forgotten Realms books... I'll have to check it out later (I'm at my friend's place right now).

Okay.

Kavon said:
Edit: Hmm... I had another thought today. About spellcasting.. I was thinking about making it that a player can select individual spells that he'd be able to cast (spells known, spells readied, spell slots, spell level. All of these would need to be ranked, with those first three split into the 9 spell levels somehow). I told one of my players about it, and he was enthusiastic about it. :)

You could always just choose a level of integrated spells. :p

Kavon said:
This idea was mainly derived from some manga I'm reading at the moment (Naruto), where there are these ninja that use techniques/spells using their chakra (spiritual energy). This works with the ninja knowing a certain ability.. and I thought it would be a nice idea to have the character learn them individually in a similar way as that.

I don't see why not.

Kavon said:
The only ploblem I see with that is characters being able to learn higher level spells (in theory). I know I could limit it, but, like with what I said some days ago, I'm not sure if it would really matter (they'd trade it off in exchange for other abilities). If I don't want a player to learn a certain ability yet, they just won't be able to find anyone to teach them..I guess. What do you think about this?
/edit

You could always just allow them to take a spell-like ability for a single feat equivalent - they could then use this ability 3/day. The caster level would be equal to their virtual class level and the

Kavon said:
Ok, I'll go through it on sunday (if I get the chance) and check out the abilities one at a time.

No problem.

Kavon said:
Alright, I'm patient ;) Really appreciate it :)

Okay, hunting this scrap of paper down could take me longer than I thought.

Kavon said:
Hmm.. I hope everything is going okay with the server o.o

If you are refering to my past computer illness it wasn't the server that was the problem - luckily I got it sorted though. Thanks for thr inquiry though.

Kavon said:
Well, I explained it to one of them (the other is out kickboxing right now), and he seems to think well of it

Minimum two votes to one - I say go for it! :D

Kavon said:
There was some hassle with the Wealth for XP thing, just like I expected (mainly because I feel the same), but I think I was able to explain why it was necesarry.

I would just let wealth freeform and not worry about it.

Kavon said:
Edit: *is back home again* Ok, the other one shares ciaran00's opinion on XP (as I expected). But, I think(/hope) I got the point across well enough. Same hassle with the Wealth for XP thing (only allot more than with the other player). He likes the system though, so that's good.

We made a little quick test character with the stuff I already had. I'm now not really sure that ability score increases are correct at 0.1 CR, since the player rather put his points in his Str than in BAB (he boosted his Str from 15 to 20 in two levels, and only took one point of BAB), but, other than the ability scores, it looked great (for as far as we went).

I would keep them at 0.1 until he reaches his racial maximums (23 for humans) and then then start taking them as +0.2 (as per the epic feats)

Kavon said:
Now I'll only need to have...
-The list of individual spell CR, and all that comes with it.
-A list of class abilities that players can pick on the fly (I think I'll make the list first, and check which ones I'm not sure about after that).
-The races for the base, and possible abilities branching from that (like that rage stuff I emailed you about some time ago).
After I'm done with those last three things, I think I'll be able to go try it out for real.

Have fun! :D
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

This might be better served in seasongs thread, what do you think?

CRGreathouse said:
I came up with this (admittedly light-hearted) monster for a different thread and wanted to know what you thought of it. Your CR system put it at about 24000, but I think that's too high -- what do you think?

(Sorry about the lack of formatting; there's no convenient way to transfer this from Word.)

Tarrasque Swarm
*SNIP*

Well you have made a number of fundamental mistakes with regards the Swarm concept.

A swarm deals 1d6 damage for every 5 HD it posesses; so it should be dealing an automatic 7200d6/round.

Also you seem to have forgotten its Ability Score increases - +1/4 HD; so it should have at least 1500 in every ability score - incidently if you were using my parameters (and therefore staying true to Monster Manual progression of ability scores) it would have a minimum 6000 in every ability score.

Looking at my other Design Parameters I would change things like Natural Armour; Regeneration and Spell Resistance.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
kreynolds said:

Hiya mate! :)

kreynolds said:
This may have already been asked and answered, but why aren't Frightful Presence and Keen Senses part of the Dragon Traits? Don't all dragons have both of these abilities?

Dragons only gain Frightful Presence at a certain age.

Darkvision and Low-light Vision are already included within the Dragon Traits.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
kreynolds said:

Hello again mate! :)

kreynolds said:
The CR you have for a Mature Adult Copper Dragon (before silver rule) is 35 (rounded off, and I'm using this number for the sake of simplicity)...

CR 35
+35 levels of wealth (7) = 42

Now, you suggest that because the total CR increased, you should apply wealth again, right? So, I should apply wealth to the additional 7 levels?

+7 levels of wealth (1.4) = 43.4

However, the CR has increased yet again, so yet another application of wealth is necessary to round it off...

+1.4 levels of wealth (0.28) = 43.68

Now, application of the silver rule brings it down to a 40.

Is that how wealth (equipment) should work when calculating ECL? Just want to make sure I've got it right. The higher CRs were throwing me off. Also, did I apply the silver rule correctly?

Lets see...

CR 35 + 7 (wealth: 35th) = 42
CR 35 + 8 (wealth: 40th) = 43 (after Silver Rule = 40)

Therefore the ECL will be 40.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

kreynolds said:
Also, one more question.

Fire away.

kreynolds said:
It's about Substituting Core Rules and CR. Most of your CRs convert over to two-thirds, but do you still recommend converting dragons over by one-half?

Just curious.

If you update Dragon Spell Resistance using the Design Parameters (SR = HD +12) then I would say the 2/3rds is valid.

Otherwise use 1/2.
 

kreynolds

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Dragons only gain Frightful Presence at a certain age.

Good point.

Upper_Krust said:
Darkvision and Low-light Vision are already included within the Dragon Traits.

But those two do not make up the entirety of keen senses. Dragons can also see twice as far as humans in normal lighting conditions as well. Do you not find this aspect of keen sense consequential enough to rate?
 



CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
Upper_Krust said:
Well you have made a number of fundamental mistakes with regards the Swarm concept.

A swarm deals 1d6 damage for every 5 HD it posesses; so it should be dealing an automatic 7200d6/round.

That looks like a good general guideline. Is there any reason to think it's (HD/5)d6, round up, rather than (say) (HD/6+1)d6, round down?

Upper_Krust said:
Also you seem to have forgotten its Ability Score increases - +1/4 HD; so it should have at least 1500 in every ability score - incidently if you were using my parameters (and therefore staying true to Monster Manual progression of ability scores) it would have a minimum 6000 in every ability score.

Nah. Monsters get racial modifiers, which subsume +1/4 modifiers. Heck, the rat swarm (for example) has the same stats as individual rats, not increased as its 4 HD would indicate if this were the case.

Upper_Krust said:
Looking at my other Design Parameters I would change things like Natural Armour; Regeneration and Spell Resistance.

Swams have natural armor as their invividual parts and no more. Not even the 12HD hellwasp swarm gets NA...

I'm more than willing to change regeneration and SR, though, as those were basically arbitrary -- crude extrapolations from the number of creatures in the swarm and comparitive increases in other swarms.
 
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Kavon

Explorer
Upper_Krust said:
Hiya mate! :)

Hey again U_K :)

Upper_Krust said:

Let's see...
Magical Training [General] (from the FR campaign setting book)
Prerequisite: Int 10
This gives you two 0th level arcane spells, once per day each, which use the character's arcane caster level (minimum 1) as caster level. This can only be taken at 1st level as well.

Does this seem worth 0.2 CR to you?

Upper_Krust said:
You could always just choose a level of integrated spells. :p

Hmm.. Yeah, I guess. I think me and my players prefer it if spells were individually taken, though.

Upper_Krust said:
You could always just allow them to take a spell-like ability for a single feat equivalent - they could then use this ability 3/day. The caster level would be equal to their virtual class level and the

Hmm.. That last part seems unfinished :eek:
But anyway.. Yeah, I think I could do something like that..
Hmm... How much would 0th level spells be costing like this?
Caster level x Spell level x 0.003 for 3/day.. let's say at 1st level, that would be.. 1 x 0.5 x 0.003 = 0.0015?
A 1st level spell, at 1st level caster level would cost 0.003 CR, or 3 XP?? Isn't that a very low cost?
I think I'll let them increase the caster level individually from character level. Like, if they want to learn a 5th level spell (9th caster level minimum) once per day, that would be 0.045 CR or 45 XP. If they want to increase the times per day by one, the total would become 0.09 CR, or 90 XP. So, they'd need to put another 45 XP in the spell to increase it like that. If they now want to increase the caster level to 10, the total changes to 0.1 CR, or 100 XP, so they'd need to put an extra 10 XP into it.
I'm not sure, but I think some of these results seem pretty low costing (like the increasing caster level to 10 costing only 10 XP).
Now that I'm looking at this.. Shouldn't there be a difference in cost between Always Active and the other ones below it? Having something permanently active seems allot more powerful then only being able to do it 5 (or even 10) times per day. Same goes for At will (though it should be slightly less than always active I guess).

Upper_Krust said:
Okay, hunting this scrap of paper down could take me longer than I thought.

*uses the Force to try and help U_K find the scrap of paper* ;)

Upper_Krust said:
If you are refering to my past computer illness it wasn't the server that was the problem - luckily I got it sorted though. Thanks for thr inquiry though.

Oh, no, I was refering to EN world not working too great at the time. I think I remember reading about you having some problems with your computer though. Glad everything is working again now ;)

Upper_Krust said:
Minimum two votes to one - I say go for it! :D

:D

Upper_Krust said:
I would just let wealth freeform and not worry about it.

Hmm... But if I let it all out the window on the wealth, wouldn't there be an inbalance after a while? I know at least one of my players likes to go to a town and find the rich neighbourhood to pillage through.. so, the player would end up with loads of wealth to spend (and he will), which would make him allot stronger than his XP total would allow for.
Or did I misunderstand you?

Upper_Krust said:
I would keep them at 0.1 until he reaches his racial maximums (23 for humans) and then then start taking them as +0.2 (as per the epic feats)

Ah, ok. Sounds good.
Where/how do I find these maximums?

Upper_Krust said:
Have fun! :D

Thanks :)
 

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