D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Knight Otu]

Hi, UK!

In this thread, Gez has posted a list of the monsters in the R3E MM, writing those that are not in the SRD in red. Hope that's helpful!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

Can you tell me where are they? Because that table is incomplete (being a relative table, you can't get the STR of Fine creatures (probably -12 or -14).

Monster Manual 2, page 4. Thats a good table.

p.3 Size: you forgot that there are monsters without STR and CON... Spectres! (all Undead+Incorporeal creatures don't have STR and CON)

Lack of strength is factored in the Incorporeal Traits.

p. 7 Golems don't have Magic Immunity, in 3.5, they have Total Spell Immunity... It isn't clear in your rules, does Spell Immunity 0-9 gives you immunity to all spells, or only to spells from level 0 to 9 (no metamagic 9th level spells)

I have read over 3.5 Golems and their description of "Immunity to Magic" is ludicrous. Golems are immune to all magic except where noted in their descriptions as far as I am concerned.

p.8 Summon: no, MULTIPLY by percentage! (if you divide something by 30%, you get a bigger number)

Okay.

Shouldn't you use the EL of the creatures or something similar? Surely 10 goblins are not as strong as a CR 10 creature... They are only annoying... Unless the strategy is to slow the enemy!

Possibly. Its a complicated

I think that Turn Resistance should be capped at less than 1.5. Even if you have 20 turn res., you can still be turned and you have other Undead vulnerabilities (there are many nasty clerical spells around, plus Mace of Desruption etc.)

Well personally I would allow up to +20 Turn Resistance for +1 and after that Turn Immunity (for a further +1).

Immune to SOME Fortitude Saves (for CON = 0)... Disintegrate still works! :-(

...unless it also affects Objects.

Can you make a Reflex Save with Dex = 0? I'm not sure... I'll have to check. If you are immobile, then you should fail Reflex saves

Let me know

Is no natural healing a modifier if the construct has fast healing? (is a disadvantage that is not a disadvantage still worth points?)

No.

Wealth: wasn't the epic wealth rules different from normal ones? Are you using YOUR rules for wealth? Probably yes, but then you should write it clearly! Something like "Morons, I'm using MY wealth rules... Knee before me or DIE!"

Unless you have a whole chapter about wealth rules in your book!

Yeah, 60 pages.

Do monsters get the 1 attribute point / four levels for free?

No its rated in their HD.

p. 20 Can you sell back attributes/move base points between attributes?

If yes, wouldn't it be easyer to simply tell that you start with 63 or 72 "free" points for attributes (55 and 64 if you don't have an attribute)

Interesting idea, I'll have a think. But I think things like elite array do not work out the same as that.

 

[Clay_More]

Hey Mr. Krust, yours threads seem to have some Energizer Bunny over them

I read some of the discussion on the subject of adding low CR minions to a high CR encounter (with the example of Skeletons and a Paragon, Great, Wyrm, Fiendish Red Dragon or something). As I think I might have pointed out later on, any system can be broken if taken to the extreme (some systems more than others though. See Epic Spells in ELH for examples).

It wouldn't be bad at all seeing the system put into some form of electronic spreadsheet. If only I hadn't stopped doing Delphi, I could have volunteered, but the knowledge is extremely rusty these days, wouldn't do much good.

And on another note, took the liberty of making a referral or two to the thread, seems most people who post monsters in them D&D forums ask for advice on CR-evaluation. I gotten through the first three converted 3.5 monsters for Necromancers Legacy with the system, hasn't been any incidents yet (CR's ended up what I would expect from playtesting).

 

[xanatos]

Can you tell me where are they? Because that table is incomplete (being a relative table, you can't get the STR of Fine creatures (probably -12 or -14).

Monster Manual 2, page 4. Thats a good table.

That table doesn't contain STR, DEX and CON! I'm sure... I have the book!

Do monsters get the 1 attribute point / four levels for free?

No its rated in their HD.

Ok... But PC and NPC classes do get it, right?

Immune to SOME Fortitude Saves (for CON = 0)... Disintegrate still works! :-(

...unless it also affects Objects.

My point was that you wrote "Immune to For saves fullstop" (p. 8) and not "Immune to For saves BUT those that affects objects"

If yes, wouldn't it be easyer to simply tell that you start with 63 or 72 "free" points for attributes (55 and 64 if you don't have an attribute)

Interesting idea, I'll have a think. But I think things like elite array do not work out the same as that.

72 and 64 where with the Elite Array.

--- Bye

 

[Kerrick]

No, full spell immunity is treated a CR +5.

Spell Immunity to a single level of spells is +0.5. (Including 0th-level spells that makes 9th-level spell immunity +5).

Ahh. Question: What do you with a spell system that goes above 9th-level spells (like, as someone mentioned, metamagic spells, or the level-based epic spell system our group uses)?

They have fractional CRs in the Monster Manual dude.

Yeah, they have 1/10, 1/8, 1/4, 1/3, and 1/2 - what about the odd ones?

Okay, got my notes now. I didn't miss much the first time, thankfully.

The ability scores rated at 0 isn't totally accurate - it should be a -, since they're unratable.

The layout is very nice, BTW - easy to read, and easy to find stuff, and I especially like how it follows the monster stablock - makes it a lot easier to go down and tally up the mods now.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

No its rated in their HD.

Stop the press...

So are you saying that a creature with 4 HD has to pay an additional cost to raise one attribute by +1?

Or are you saying that cost is subsumed into the cost of his HD. So a creature with 4 HD gets +1 attribute for free, but then pays an additional cost for +2 and beyond? 8 HD would get +2 for free, but pay for +3 an above, etc.


Wulf

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I can't make it work!

Hi Krust!

First of all I will start out with a correction You rate the Giant type as +0.2 CR because of Darkvision. Only thing is, that was in 3.0. In the MM 3.5 giant type creatures have low light vision and therefore only +0.1 CR
Hope I haven't destroyed your day.

And now please help! Anyone! I have tried to calculate the CR of some creatures and no matter how I try I can't get the numbers UK get. So I must be doing something wrong, wrong, wrong and I don't know what it is....

So if someone would please give me a hand here. Let's start with the Ogre, an old favorite of mine. Krust rate it at 5.225 CR. Here's what I get:

4 giant HD (0.55*4) = 2.2
Large size = 1.2
+5 natural armor = 0.5
Darkvision 0.2
Lowlight vision 0.1
Full Attack (2d8) = 0.9

This totals 5.1 CR. Where does the rest come from? What am I forgetting? And it gets worse when you take into consideration that the Ogre should have a -0.6 CR adjustment for its crappy ability scores, which ends up making the Ogre CR 4.5!
Help!

Next the Doppelganger. Krust rate it at 4.43.

4 monstrous humanoid HD (0.6*4) = 2.4
+4 natural armor = 0.4
Darkvision = 0.2
Change Shape = 0.5
Detect Thoughts (18*2*0.005) = 0.18
Immune to sleep & charm = 0.2
Skill bonuses (+8) = 0.16

This gives 4.04 CR. Now add +1.4 CR for ability scores and you got a full CR more than Krusty's rating.
Help!

Last one, the elf warrior. UK got it at 1.285.

Elf traits = 0.36
Warrior lvl = 0.7
lvl of npc equipment = 0.125

Total = 1.185. Where does the last 0.1 come from?

So I'm confused and admitting it.

Anyone?

 

[kreynolds]

UK,

Couple questions about templates. Let's say you have a template that changes your creature type to outsider and adds +4 to Strength. Your monster creation tips suggest allowing outsiders to use the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) as their base. However, humans use the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8). Now, when you're calculating up the CR for the +4 to Strength, do you need to change the assumed array for the character from standard to elite now that they're an outsider? Or do you just ignore that and figure up the CR modifier for the +4 to Strength at +0.4 and call it a day?

Also, since templates do not typically include hit die, how do the golden and silver rules apply to them? Can you only actually apply these rules to the CR of a template _after_ the template has been applied to a creature? It doesn't seem to me that you can apply either rules to the template until you have the base creature's CR to work with as well.

What do you think? Also, over on the Wizard's boards, these questions are also more or less stated here, in my post just above yours.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

But your list (p.8, 2nd column, upper right) is wrong: You say that Ability Scores from Size factor affect CR... Ok... The Size affect CR... But it gives you free Ability Scores points. Reading what it's written it seems that you have to pay for the +8 STR that Large Size gives you.

You do pay for ability score modifiers within the current (v4) rating of Size.

In fact when a monster didn't have the applicable minimum modifiers I reduced the CR appropriately.

Then why Natural Armor isn't included in Size? I know that in a perfect world a creature would be the sum of various "layers" of templates... A Race/Type template plus a Size Template plus some generic templates plus the creature.

Maybe it should be included.

I consider Special Templates (Lich, Half Dragon etc) to be "adders" to the basic creature... You don't create a Half Dragon Half Demon Xyzptl from scratch. You first create a "Xyzptl"... Then you make it an Half Dragon Half Demon Xyzptl. So Special Templates should have attribute modifiers. Size is different. Each creature has a size and you normally don't start thinking a creature as a medium size creature and then enlarging it (or perhaps you could... For humanoid creatures sometimes I do this... I think it as a medium size creature and I ask myself how it would compare to a human... Then I enlarge it)... But many persons directly use the suggested values for creatures of size X, or directly compare it to other creatures (if I want the Yellow Dragon with Blue Spots I take a standard Dragon and I modify it... I don't start from scratch thinking "how would it be if it was a Human?")

Nevertheless, Size is a template in all but name.

Are you saying that ability scores should simply be factored in and of themselves!? Are you going to apply ECL penalties to PCs who roll high ability scores!?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi, UK!

Hiya Knight Otu mate!

In this thread, Gez has posted a list of the monsters in the R3E MM, writing those that are not in the SRD in red. Hope that's helpful!

Thanks for that! Yes it is helpful.

...though it means I did about twenty CRs more than I should have.