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D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey Wulf mate! :)

Wulf Ratbane said:
I should also volunteer, I know, but I just have too much on my plate at the moment trying to finish up Grim Tales. I fear my brain is pretty fried at the moment, I don't trust myself around "complex" math like addition and subtraction!

Spare a thought for my predicament. :p

Wulf Ratbane said:
If you give me very specific directions, and all the monsters are from MMI 3.5, and you think I can do it in just a couple of hours, then I will be happy to help.

I showed what to do in my previous post. If you are feeling frisky then post here and reserve a letter of the alphabet...quick before we run out...once word gets out everybody will want one! :D

Just to show how much of a fool I am I will reserve the letter 'D'. Hows that for masochism. :eek:

Wulf Ratbane said:
I am glad you like the EL calculations-- I am very gratified to have contributed something back to what I consider a piece of very brilliant design.

Yeah, top stuff your end.

I enjoy working on the major changes but its these minor pernickity (sp?) quibbles that just grate on the soul.
 

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Kavon

Explorer
ciaran00 said:
This is not very consistent. Say a player makes a weapon, and then it eventually fails (say it's a Wand of Fire). He is still left without XP, yes? What if the player uses the scroll to break into a vault to gain an item that balances (or greatly unbalances) him from the rest of the party? What if the player lives because he made a fireball scroll and used it to save his life (because he ran out of spells)? Isn't surviving imminent death otherwise a permanent effect bestowed by the scroll which is justifiable by a permanent tap of XP?

Aren't wands like scrolls that eventually run out too? What about a ring of free action inside an antimagic shell? A player scarfs down a bag of chips shouldn't get refunded after he's done because he's now taken care of his hunger.

Also, the player is making this choice. If it's not worth it to him to make a scroll then he shouldn't. Point is, that he is... he wants his character to be more effective... and if he wants it in THIS particular fashion then he HAS to pay with XP. No refunds.

ciaran

When I said scroll, I meant anything that isn't permanent. So, anything with charges would count for that too.
I'm just saying that, say, if you have a party with a wizard or some such in it, who spent 500 XP on making scrolls at 1st level (for example). The wizard uses all his scrolls up.. He just lost 500 XP to one-time items. His companions all have 500 XP, while the wizard is at 0. They go adventure a bit more, and gain another 500 XP.. All of the wizard's companions level up, but the wizard is still at 500 XP now. The scrolls are used, the wizards gained only a very small thing on them (it doesn't matter if he used the scroll to save his life, things like this are irrelivent. anything could save anybodies life in whatever situation, that doesn't mean they need to pay XP for it).
The wizard is still level 1, while he gained exactly the same amount of XP as his friends. In this situation, the wizard has a lower CR just because he lost XP to making scrolls. It doesn't help by saying that the wizard just shouldn't make scrolls or like items. Why would they be there in the first place if the game is supposed to be balanced? You say the character will be more effective by having the scrolls, or the wand, or whatever. Sure it will.. for only a while. After that the items will have lost their use, and the one who made them will have this eternal hole in his XP total.
The example of the ring inside an anti-magic field.. It means nothing. The ring will have its use again after it gets out of it again. Cast dispel magic on it, same deal. Temporary negation. The same could be said about a rogue fighting agains something immune to sneak attacks.
The example of the food is also something that doesn't really have much to do with it, since you don't buy the bag of chips by giving them a finger, or one of your ears. Something that you can't replace. Yes, the way I see XP is that it can't be replaced. The standard max is 20 character levels, or 190,000 XP. Take out 1000 XP, and the character will forever be stuck at 189,000 XP (with 1000 XP being used up by the wands, scrolls, whatever), or 19th character level.
If you tell me that the character would just be able to gain more XP again, that would make the character more powerful than the characters that aren't able to create magical items, since the spellcaster could just keep creating items, making himself a higher CR, while all his non-spellcasting buddies keep strolling around with the same power, since they are stuck at 190,000 XP.
This example might not be totally true (not sure if the max is exactly at the point where the 20th level is gained), but the example would be true either way, since the non-spellcasters can't spend XP on anything.
I know that levels can go beyond 20th, and I'm not one to limit my players to 20 levels (if they ever get that far >_>), but it was just an example trying to explain why I feel this way.
 
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Kavon

Explorer
Upper_Krust said:
Hiya mate! :)

Hey again U_K :)

Upper_Krust said:
Tell them I said hi! :)

Alright, I'll show them the topic ;)

Upper_Krust said:
Well the problem with simply using individual hit points (rather than HD) is that you don't gain the benefit of any CON bonuses.

So it might be best to keep HD rather than hp.

Oh yeah! I knew there was something wrong with it (just didn't know what x_x ).

Upper_Krust said:
Everythings balanced with regards either feats or with what should be the average for a feat over 20 levels (as with the +6 hit points deviating from the Toughness feat).

Yeah, I guess I should've been clearer about it. :eek: Could you give a few examples on how you matched it all together? Like, how much would Lay on Hands be? I can't really think of any feat that has a similar effect to that. Things like that.

Upper_Krust said:
Well your caster level would be the same as your CR (which is going to be the same as level if you maintain the core EXP progression)
Hmm... I'm not sure if I'm not understanding you, or if you're misunderstanding me. :eek:
If, say, a character has an spell-like ability that emulates a 3rd level spell, and has the caster level of the spell based off of the character's character level, would the spell-like ability's CR rating increase with every character level? If so, I'm not sure if that would work that well in the system I'm working on, since they'd have to keep paying for the ability for each character level they accumilate.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
Upper_Krust said:
I have changed all the Size modifiers in this latest version.

Here are the new Size Mods without ability scores (for use below):

Fine: +0.45
Diminutive: -0.2
Tiny: -0.45
Small: +/-0
Med: +/-0
Large: +0.4
Huge: +0.7
Gargantuan: +1
Colossal: +1
Colossal +: +2.1


Heres what you need to do:

1. Subtract old size modifier
2. Add new size modifier (without ability scores; see above)
3. Factor all ability scores (+0.1 per point over 10; -0.1 per point below 10)
4. Recalculate Golden Rule
5. Recalculate Silver Rule

eg. Aboleth 12.852
1. Subract previous Huge Modifier (-2.4) = 10.452
2. New Huge mod. without Ability Scores (+0.7) = 11.152
3. Factor all ability scores (+4.7) = 15.852
4. Recalculate Golden Rule 15.852 - 8.8* = 7.052 (divide by 2) = 3.526 + 8.8 = 12.326 (12)
5. Recalculate Silver Rule (x0.85) = 10

So the Aboleth would be:
Base: 15.852
Golden Rule: 12.326 (12)
Silver Rule: 10

Your mission should you choose to accept it is to detail all the letter 'A's except the Aboleth (obviously) and the example monsters (Aboleth Mage; Hound Archon Hero) which are not OGL compliant.

NB. Remember when doing Constructs or Undead to remove the original No-Constitution size bonus. ;)

I'll see how you get on after the letter 'A's.

Have fun. :D

I accept. :cool:

Should I post the results for others to see and comment, or should I mail you the results to avoid ridicule and shame ;)

:)
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Kavon said:
Hey again U_K :)

Hi Kavon matey! :)

Kavon said:
Yeah, I guess I should've been clearer about it. :eek: Could you give a few examples on how you matched it all together? Like, how much would Lay on Hands be? I can't really think of any feat that has a similar effect to that. Things like that.

In these situations you have to ask yourself would a certain ability work as a feat? Or would it be too powerful, or not powerful enough!?

Kavon said:
Hmm... I'm not sure if I'm not understanding you, or if you're misunderstanding me. :eek:

If, say, a character has an spell-like ability that emulates a 3rd level spell, and has the caster level of the spell based off of the character's character level, would the spell-like ability's CR rating increase with every character level? If so, I'm not sure if that would work that well in the system I'm working on, since they'd have to keep paying for the ability for each character level they accumilate.

You see this is why you should probably keep EXP equal to official progression; then you have those 'virtual levels' to use for this sort of thing.
 


Kavon

Explorer
Upper_Krust said:
Hi Kavon matey! :)

Hey U_K :)

Upper_Krust said:
In these situations you have to ask yourself would a certain ability work as a feat? Or would it be too powerful, or not powerful enough!?

Hmm.. Yes. The thing I'm not confident about yet is.. how much more/less powerful than a feat is a certain thing? In some situations I can use my intuition on these things, and get it right by being lucky.. But I'd feel more comfortable if I had some sort of measuring stick.
I know there are allot of examples in v4 already, but I feel there might be certain things missing, like, how to account for a variable caster level with a spell-like ability. It's likely that I'm not seeing something of course.. I guess I'll go through it sometime and note the things I'm not sure about down, so that I can ask you about those.
I was also asking if you had the list of how much all the abilities were, since I know my players would like to have a list of abilities they could pick from. If you don't have it, I'll try making it myself of course (with all the errors I'm likely to make *sob* :p ). I'll have to map out the classes from Arcana Unearthed too I think..

Hmm... Now that I think about it, how did you calculate the Integrated Spell Levels on page 19? I'll need to calculate how much the Integrated Spell Levels for the spellcasters in Arcana Unearthed are, since I built my homebrew spellcasting system around that...
Which brings me to another question... Hmm.. I'll email you about that I guess. I'll give you the file I made about my casting system to see what you think about it. I haven't worked on it for quite a while, so I'm not sure what I needed to change still. I'll check it out again one of these days.

Upper_Krust said:
You see this is why you should probably keep EXP equal to official progression; then you have those 'virtual levels' to use for this sort of thing.
Yeah, I'm still going to hold true to the XP/character level table. I'm just going to consider breaking the progression up into little pieces (this depends largely on how far my players are willing to go on this as well).
For example...
The character starts at level 1, and needs 1000 XP to reach 2nd level. This is 1 CR, thus 0.1 CR = 100 XP. If I break it up in feat-size bits, that'll be 200 XP a piece. They choose what ability they want to gain, and they 'train' in that while gaining XP (or they gain the XP, and choose where to put it in). Once they reach 1000 XP, they'll be level 2, and 0.1 CR would now cost 200 XP. The XP needed for one feat doubles to 400 XP. At level 3, it triples, etc...
If they want an ability that is greater than 1 feat (let's say 1.5 times as good; 300 XP for level 1), and they already have, say, 800 XP. They'd spend the normal amount for the first 2/3rd of the ability, and the level 2 amount after they gained 1000 XP. So, they first spent 200 XP on the ability. They become level 2, and for the last part of the ability they'll have to pay twice as much XP (200, for a total of 400 XP) to increase it further (and any other ability they'd want).
This way they wouldn't need to wait so long till they'd be able to gain something for their character (although it wouldn't be as much as they would get at a normal level up).
This would only be one way of doing it though. If the player wants, they can save up their XP to use for stuff like creating magical items, or to spend it all when they become level 2. It just depends on how much trouble the player is willing to go through, and what type of progression he/she feels comfortable with.
The end result should be the same either way (except if I missed something).

I..er.. hope I'm explaining this well enough. I know how terrible I am at it. :eek:
 


CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
I might do a few of these, if nothing else to make up for the amount of U_K's time I've wasted. Just a few, though; I'll probably start from the end of the alphabet.

Upper_Krust said:
eg. Aboleth 12.852
1. Subract previous Huge Modifier (-2.4) = 10.452
2. New Huge mod. without Ability Scores (+0.7) = 11.152
3. Factor all ability scores (+4.7) = 15.852
4. Recalculate Golden Rule 15.852 - 8.8* = 7.052 (divide by 2) = 3.526 + 8.8 = 12.326 (12)
5. Recalculate Silver Rule (x0.85) = 10

Aaugh! You mean you're calculating scores that aren't a part of racial bonuses?

For example, doppelgangers have a total modifier of +14: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha. Their base scores, though, aren't all 10: they use the standard array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. This means that calculated as you did the aboleth, they would get +1.7 instead of +1.4, to no benefit! This would be like counting elven ability scores as +0.3 instead of +0.
 

CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
With some assumptions about the above question:

Unicorn: base CR 5.978 (6.778 - 1.2 [old size] + 0.4 [new size]) + 5 [abilities] = 10.978; 2.6 points from HD. Golden rule 6.789; silver rule 5.771.]

Vampire Spawn: base CR 9.77 (9.77 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) + 1.7 [abilities] = 11.47; 1.8 points from HD. Golden rule 6.635; silver rule 5.64.

Vargouille: base CR 2.35 (1.95 + 0.4 [old size] + 0 [new size]) - 0.3 [abilities] = 2.05; 0.7 points from HD. Golden rule 1.375; silver rule 1.169.

Wight: base CR 4.51 (4.51 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) + 1 [abilities] = 5.51; 1.8 points from HD. Golden rule 3.655; silver rule 3.107.

Will-O’-Wisp: base CR 11.2 (10.8 + 0.4 [old size] + 0 [new size]) + 2 [abilities] = 13.2; 4.95 points from HD. Golden rule 9.075; silver rule 7.714.

Winter Wolf: base CR 7.305 (8.105 - 1.2 [old size] + 0.4 [new size]) + 1.6 [abilities] = 8.905; 3.9 points from HD. Golden rule 6.403; silver rule 5.442.

Worg: base CR 4.03 (4.03 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) + 1.4 [abilities] = 5.43; 2.6 points from HD. Golden rule 4.015; silver rule 3.413.

Wraith: base CR 6.7 (6.7 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) + 1.6 [abilities] = 8.3; 2.25 points from HD. Golden rule 5.275; silver rule 4.484.

Dread Wraith: base CR 14.3 (14.7 - 0.8 [old size] + 0.4 [new size]) + 4.4 [abilities] = 18.7; 7.2 points from HD. Golden rule 12.95; silver rule 11.008.

Wyvern: base CR 11.91 (12.71 - 1.2 [old size] + 0.4 [new size]) + 1 [abilities] = 12.91; 5.25 points from HD. Golden rule 9.08; silver rule 7.718.

Xill: base CR 7.1 (7.1 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) + 1.8 [abilities] = 8.9; 3.5 points from HD. Golden rule 6.2; silver rule 5.27.

Minor Xorn: base CR 7.916 (7.516 + 0.4 [old size] + 0 [new size]) + 0.8 [abilities] = 8.716; 1.65 points from HD. Golden rule 5.183; silver rule 4.406.

Average Xorn: base CR 11.916 (11.916 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) + 1 [abilities] = 12.916; 3.85 points from HD. Golden rule 8.383; silver rule 7.126.

Elder Xorn: base CR 18.816 (19.616 - 1.2 [old size] + 0.4 [new size]) + 2.2 [abilities] = 21.016; 8.25 points from HD. Golden rule 14.633; silver rule 12.438.

Yeth Hound: base CR 4.71 (4.71 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) + 1.4 [abilities] = 6.11; 2.1 points from HD. Golden rule 4.105; silver rule 3.489.

Yrthak: base CR 13.38 (15.08 - 2.4 [old size] + 0.7 [new size]) + 1.9 [abilities] = 15.28; 7.8 points from HD. Golden rule 11.54; silver rule 9.809.

Kobold zombie: base CR 0.191 (-0.009 + 0.2 [old size] + 0 [new size]) - 1.3 [abilities] = -1.109; 0.7 points from HD. Golden rule -0.205; silver rule -0.174.

Human zombie: base CR 0.066 (0.066 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) - 1.2 [abilities] = -1.134; 0.7 points from HD. Golden rule -0.217; silver rule -0.184.

Troglodyte zombie: base CR 1.691 (1.691 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) - 1.3 [abilities] = 0.391; 1.4 points from HD. Golden rule 0.896; silver rule 0.761.

Bugbear zombie: base CR 1.991 (1.991 + 0 [old size] + 0 [new size]) - 0.5 [abilities] = 1.491; 2.1 points from HD. Golden rule 1.796; silver rule 1.526.

Ogre zombie: base CR 3.841 (4.241 - 0.8 [old size] + 0.4 [new size]) - 0.3 [abilities] = 3.541; 2.8 points from HD. Golden rule 3.171; silver rule 2.695.

Minotaur zombie: base CR 5.391 (5.791 - 0.8 [old size] + 0.4 [new size]) - 0.3 [abilities] = 5.091; 4.2 points from HD. Golden rule 4.646; silver rule 3.949.

Wyvern zombie: base CR 6.016 (6.416 - 0.8 [old size] + 0.4 [new size]) - 0.1 [abilities] = 5.916; 4.9 points from HD. Golden rule 5.408; silver rule 4.597.

Gray Render zombie: base CR 7.716 (8.116 - 0.8 [old size] + 0.4 [new size]) + 0.1 [abilities] = 7.816; 7 points from HD. Golden rule 7.408; silver rule 6.297.
 
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Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
CRGreathouse said:
Aaugh! You mean you're calculating scores that aren't a part of racial bonuses?

Well, if it's going to be done this way, all ability scores need to be their own calculation.

And if a creature's racial ability modifiers total to more than +0, then yes, they should be counted.

For example, doppelgangers have a total modifier of +14: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha. Their base scores, though, aren't all 10: they use the standard array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. This means that calculated as you did the aboleth, they would get +1.7 instead of +1.4, to no benefit! This would be like counting elven ability scores as +0.3 instead of +0.

The best way to calculate the ability score CR factor is to add them all up, subtract 63, and divide the result by 10.

Correct me if I'm wrong there, UK.


Wulf
 

CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
Wulf Ratbane said:
The best way to calculate the ability score CR factor is to add them all up, subtract 63, and divide the result by 10.

Correct me if I'm wrong there, UK.

U_K's example didn't subtract 63; it subtracted 60. That's why I was concerned.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
CRGreathouse said:
U_K's example didn't subtract 63; it subtracted 60. That's why I was concerned.

A small gaffe on UK's part.

The average ability array is 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10; the average ability score is 10.5; 10.5 x 6 = 63.
 

CRGreathouse

Community Supporter
Wulf Ratbane said:
A small gaffe on UK's part.

The average ability array is 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10; the average ability score is 10.5; 10.5 x 6 = 63.

I've actually made a small spreadsheet to help update the monsters, and it subtracts 63. I wanted to make sure that U_K's mistake was just that and not a change. That would be bad.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
Yet another ECL question. :rolleyes:

Okay, Krust is saying that the Golden rule probably shouldn't be used on CR's when used as ECL.

But the silver rule rule should be used still. So shouldn't it say somewhere that the silver rule is applied to the base CR when determining ECL?

Later,

Edit: And shouldn't it say that the golden rule shouldn't be applied?
 
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seasong

First Post
I've started a thread for playing with Upper Krust's system. It is NOT a third thread to discuss whether or not the system needs fixing in some teeny tiny way. It's a sandbox to build castles in.

I've started things off with a bit of fun for the players in my upcoming D&D campaign (which will likely be starting next year), the Dark Contract template. As I have time, I will add other stuff as well (one thing I want to add is a domain realm of the Sun, and the winged humanoids that dwell there).
 

Kavon

Explorer
Woohoo, took me an hour to get here (at least) :eek:

Hey U_K :)

More questions I was thinking about.

How much would you deem suitable for additional attacks (not the iterative attacks)? Right now I've got it at 0.3, but I have the eerie feeling that that might be a bit low *looks around shoulder* o.o

I also had an idea on doing the HD and skill points..
I'm going to limit both to 1 per level (mostly because of skills), since if they'd be able to pick 2+Int more than once per level, no one would be taking 8+Int, since you'd get your Int bonus 4 times with 2+Int compared to the one time you get with 8+Int (it'll be about the same cost iirc). I'm still putting in the Skill ranks thing because if there wouldn't be any bonus on it from Int, it would decrease the effectiveness of the Int score. They can gain bonus skill points besides this though, just like I'm allowing for bonus HP besides the HD.

I'm gonna get going to my friends now, so I'll try to get back to this some other time.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hi all! :)

Okay I have about 30 minutes before I have to go out. Lets see if I can make a dent in these posts.

Kavon said:

Hi mate! :)

Kavon said:
Hmm.. Yes. The thing I'm not confident about yet is.. how much more/less powerful than a feat is a certain thing? In some situations I can use my intuition on these things, and get it right by being lucky.. But I'd feel more comfortable if I had some sort of measuring stick.

I always try to use the force. :p

Kavon said:
I know there are allot of examples in v4 already, but I feel there might be certain things missing, like, how to account for a variable caster level with a spell-like ability. It's likely that I'm not seeing something of course..

Isn't there a feat somewhere that gives you spell-like abilities?

Kavon said:
I guess I'll go through it sometime and note the things I'm not sure about down, so that I can ask you about those.

Okay.

Kavon said:
I was also asking if you had the list of how much all the abilities were, since I know my players would like to have a list of abilities they could pick from. If you don't have it, I'll try making it myself of course (with all the errors I'm likely to make *sob* :p ).

Give me a list of the stuff you are unsure about.

Kavon said:
I'll have to map out the classes from Arcana Unearthed too I think..

Hmm... Now that I think about it, how did you calculate the Integrated Spell Levels on page 19? I'll need to calculate how much the Integrated Spell Levels for the spellcasters in Arcana Unearthed are, since I built my homebrew spellcasting system around that...

Okay, thats complicated and I can't remember exactly off hand, you'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Kavon said:
Which brings me to another question... Hmm.. I'll email you about that I guess. I'll give you the file I made about my casting system to see what you think about it. I haven't worked on it for quite a while, so I'm not sure what I needed to change still. I'll check it out again one of these days.

Okay.

Kavon said:
Yeah, I'm still going to hold true to the XP/character level table. I'm just going to consider breaking the progression up into little pieces (this depends largely on how far my players are willing to go on this as well).
For example...
The character starts at level 1, and needs 1000 XP to reach 2nd level. This is 1 CR, thus 0.1 CR = 100 XP. If I break it up in feat-size bits, that'll be 200 XP a piece. They choose what ability they want to gain, and they 'train' in that while gaining XP (or they gain the XP, and choose where to put it in). Once they reach 1000 XP, they'll be level 2, and 0.1 CR would now cost 200 XP. The XP needed for one feat doubles to 400 XP. At level 3, it triples, etc...
If they want an ability that is greater than 1 feat (let's say 1.5 times as good; 300 XP for level 1), and they already have, say, 800 XP. They'd spend the normal amount for the first 2/3rd of the ability, and the level 2 amount after they gained 1000 XP. So, they first spent 200 XP on the ability. They become level 2, and for the last part of the ability they'll have to pay twice as much XP (200, for a total of 400 XP) to increase it further (and any other ability they'd want).
This way they wouldn't need to wait so long till they'd be able to gain something for their character (although it wouldn't be as much as they would get at a normal level up).
This would only be one way of doing it though. If the player wants, they can save up their XP to use for stuff like creating magical items, or to spend it all when they become level 2. It just depends on how much trouble the player is willing to go through, and what type of progression he/she feels comfortable with.
The end result should be the same either way (except if I missed something).

If you are confident about it then I say go for it. Should be a useful exercise in player education anyway.

Kavon said:
I..er.. hope I'm explaining this well enough. I know how terrible I am at it. :eek:

All seems straightforward to me.
 


Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

CRGreathouse said:
I might do a few of these, if nothing else to make up for the amount of U_K's time I've wasted. Just a few, though; I'll probably start from the end of the alphabet.

Appreciate the help mate.

CRGreathouse said:
Aaugh! You mean you're calculating scores that aren't a part of racial bonuses?

For example, doppelgangers have a total modifier of +14: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha. Their base scores, though, aren't all 10: they use the standard array of 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10. This means that calculated as you did the aboleth, they would get +1.7 instead of +1.4, to no benefit! This would be like counting elven ability scores as +0.3 instead of +0.

Temporary oversight.

****ing ability scores and revised CRs will be the death of me. :rolleyes: :D
 

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