D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi seasong mate!

I'm probably missing it somewhere. How are the summon spells broken down in this system?

I.e., what limits are set for a summon monster III?

Well you can either use the spell level itself (and treat it as a Spell-like ability);

or take the monsters CR (instead of caster level) and multiply it by half the monsters CR (instead of spell level), then multiply by the Uses modifier.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there GPEKO!

Something like this (see below, it's not finished) ??

Looks pretty good so far.

By the way, great work Upper_Krust !

Hey thanks for the kind words!

But, after reading this, I stand with those who are in favor of adding the ability scores (not due to size of course...) to the calculation, somehow.

I'll see what v4.1 looks like tonight.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Hi CRGreathouse matey!



Why does it gain a CON score!? Its a construct!?

No, it's not. An incarnate construct is given life and an altered body. They eat, sleap, breathe, and dream. Their type changes to Humanoid or Giant (depending on size).

 

[kreynolds]

Technically it should be either called:

Fast Harming (Undead)
Fast Repair (Constructs)

The Maug from the FF has Rapid Repair, which makes more sense than Fast Healing. However, from a rules standpoint, there's really no difference between Fast/Rapid Repair or Fast Healing, so it doesn't make a difference anyway, except for semantics.

 

[xanatos]

I think its:
AC Bonus: +0.1/point
Attack Bonus: +0.1/point
Reach: +/-0.1/ft above/below 5 ft
Space: -0.2/size category above medium
Ability Scores: +/-0.1/point
Speed: +/-0.1/10 ft above/below 30 ft

This was your cost breakdown for Size... But there are some problems:
Let's take a Small Creature:
AC Bonus: +1 (+0.1 CR)
Attack Bonus: +1 (+0.1 CR)
Reach: 5 feet (0 CR)
Space: 0
Ability Scores: -4 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON = -4 (-0.4 CR)
Speed: 20 ft (-0.1)

= -0.3 CR instead of -0.4 CR

There seem to be problem with Fine and Diminutive (but not with Tiny)

Another problem: you used 25 feet for the Reach of Colossal Creatures instead of the suggested 30 feet (MM 3.5 p. 314)

--- Bye

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

No, it's not. An incarnate construct is given life and an altered body. They eat, sleap, breathe, and dream. Their type changes to Humanoid or Giant (depending on size).

Whats the point of playing an intelligent construct and then totally changing everything it means to be a construct. Just seems a bit silly to me.

 

[seasong]

AC Bonus: +1 (+0.1 CR)
Attack Bonus: +1 (+0.1 CR)
Grapple Penalty: -4 (-0.1, based on Improved Grapple)
Reach: 5 feet (0 CR)
Space: 0
Ability Scores: -4 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON = -4 (-0.4 CR)
Speed: 20 ft (-0.1)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

The Maug from the FF has Rapid Repair, which makes more sense than Fast Healing. However, from a rules standpoint, there's really no difference between Fast/Rapid Repair or Fast Healing, so it doesn't make a difference anyway, except for semantics.

Absolutely.

Though I still say Fast Healing should be EXtraordinary; whereas Regeneration should be SUpernatural.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

This was your cost breakdown for Size... But there are some problems:
Let's take a Small Creature:
AC Bonus: +1 (+0.1 CR)
Attack Bonus: +1 (+0.1 CR)
Reach: 5 feet (0 CR)
Space: 0
Ability Scores: -4 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON = -4 (-0.4 CR)
Speed: 20 ft (-0.1)

= -0.3 CR instead of -0.4 CR

There seem to be problem with Fine and Diminutive (but not with Tiny)

Another problem: you used 25 feet for the Reach of Colossal Creatures instead of the suggested 30 feet (MM 3.5 p. 314)

Maybe when I was outlining the individual facets I forgot to mention Weight Allowance.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey seasong mate!

AC Bonus: +1 (+0.1 CR)
Attack Bonus: +1 (+0.1 CR)
Grapple Penalty: -4 (-0.1, based on Improved Grapple)
Reach: 5 feet (0 CR)
Space: 0
Ability Scores: -4 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON = -4 (-0.4 CR)
Speed: 20 ft (-0.1)

Grapple Bonus is negated by Hide Bonus.

 

[seasong]

Hide bonus is negated by -1 on average to all weapon damages

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Hide bonus is negated by -1 on average to all weapon damages

Damage is rated independantly of size. Nice try though.

 

[xanatos]

Hi xanatos mate!
Maybe when I was outlining the individual facets I forgot to mention Weight Allowance.

To solve the smaller-than-human, you created another problem: the bigger-than-human where fine... Now they have to pay for the weight allowance!
And Tiny Creatures where fine!
How much does Weight Allowance costs? 0,1 * Size up/down Medium?

Without Weight Allowance, without considering Natural Armor, counting double for AC bonus and Attack bonus (I used an excel worksheet)

Size			STR	DEX	CON	NatAr	Reach	Mov.	Space	AC/Att.	Ab.Poin	MyCost	IH Cost
Fine			0	18	8	0	0	5	0	8	-4	0,45	-0,35
Diminutive		0	16	8	0	0	10	0	4	-6	-0,5	-0,8
Tiny			2	14	8	0	0	15	0	2	-6	-0,85	-0,85
Small			6	12	8	0	5	20	0	1	-4	-0,3	-0,4
Medium			10	10	10	0	5	30	0	0	0	0	0
Large			18	8	14	2	10	40	1	-1	10	1,2	1,2
Huge			26	6	18	5	15	50	2	-2	20	2,4	2,4
Gargantuan		34	6	22	9	20	60	3	-4	32	3,6	3,6
Colossal		42	6	26	14	25	70	4	-8	44	4,4	4,4

Bye
Max

 

[xanatos]

The formula I used:
0.1*ACBonus+0.1*AttackBonus+0.1*(Reach-5)-0.2*Space+0.1*AbScores+0.1*(Mov-30)/10
(translated from Excel speech). Note that ACBonus = AttackBonus

---Bye

 

[kreynolds]

Though I still say Fast Healing should be EXtraordinary

It is.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

I think that perhaps weight allowance should be perhaps +/-0.1 per size category. Though it should be +0.2 without an actual size increase since Larger sizes mean you need larger (and heavier) equipment; generally speaking.

So a medium creature with double weight allowance would be +0.2; whereas a Large creature (which has the double weight allowance) would only be +0.1.


Incidently I am working on v4.1 and v4.2.

v4.1 is all the errata (and Wulfs EL suggestions) but no changes to how ability scores are determined.

v4.2 is as v4.1 but with those ability modifier changes applied.

Theres not really that much more to do so I should have things ship shape by tomorrow.

 

[xanatos]

Hi xanatos mate!
I think that perhaps weight allowance should be perhaps +/-0.1 per size category. Though it should be +0.2 without an actual size increase since Larger sizes mean you need larger (and heavier) equipment; generally speaking.

So a medium creature with double weight allowance would be +0.2; whereas a Large creature (which has the double weight allowance) would only be +0.1.

So all your Size costs are wrong?

Some "things" I didnt' posted before (I didn't want to make a kilometer-long post)

p. 8 There is a point cost even to have a 1-2 Int (look at Animals, p. 3). You should write why.
p. 9 Are you applying the Silver Rule to the decimal CR or to the rounded one? You should write it. (it's to the decimal... 10 * 0.85 = 8, but the CR of the aboleth is 9)
How do you apply the Silver Rule to fractional CR? (in truth it's Negative CR... Probably you should divide by 0.85 instead of multiplying (-1 * 0.85 = -0.85... The monster is more powerful!))

How do you calculate the bonus HP of oozes and constructs? (oops... Oozes don't have HP bonus in 3.5... Only construct get it)

p. 14 "Rustproof" colossus? 99% of the creatures are rustproof... Simply the Iron Golem should have a vulnerability to magical rust!

p. 14 Are you saying that the CR of the Monster Manual are to low? Do you think that a Balor has a 50/50% in a fair fight with a 28 level warrior/barbarian/paladin?

p. 15 What strange formula have you used to pre-calculate the EL? It's even stranger than the Wealth Rules for Epic characters! Ah... Now I see: 4 * log2(CR) + 1. You should write it somewhere!

p. 17 You forgot to change the +/- sign for some modifiers (the ones that make the encounter more difficult)
What do you mean with "party outnumber opponents"? You shouldn't be telegraphic!

p. 19 You forgot to define what is 100%...
Probably you should have calculated the CR of the base classes as a CR and not as a percentage of the CR1 or CR20. You have just finished building a very complex system to calculate CR and then you decide to ignore it and "invent" other numbers.
Silver Rule: you should have put the Silver Rule near the Golden Rule, with a link to the appendix for the reasons of this rule. So a reader doesn't have to read the Appendix to be able to build a CR.

In the new DM guide (the 3.5) there is a paragraph about adding non-compatible classes to monsters (for example adding a level of Wizard to a giant). It's even included in the SRD. Perhaps you should put a note in your manual.

What's happened to the ECL rules? Didn't you found a formula to convert CR to ECL?

What about Epic Feats? How much are they valued? How much powerful does a monster become if I substitute a standard feat with an epic one?

Outsiders: there is a VERY large class of spells usable against outsiders. Shouldn't they get a bonus? It's like Undead and Turning...

--- Bye

 

[Kavon]

Hey U_K

I was wondering about something...

I'm thinking of using your system to figure out some sort of alternative leveling system that I think my players will love. I know there's probably already some similar kind of system out there that has something like this already.. I just consider it a challenge to make it work by doing it myself (so I can brag with it to my players, or whatnot. )
It's like.. you're not tied to a certain package of levels (no actual classes and all that, just the abilities to pick from.. all need to be explained for of course), instead you 'train' in certain things (or you gain XP and put it into learning certain abilities..or both..er..). I was thinking about letting 0.1 CR cost 100 xp (once the character has gained enough XP to level up, everything will cost twice as much as at 1st level, at 3rd level, everything costs 3 times as much, etc..).
Let's say...they want to learn a feat/special ability, so they find some way to learn it (by finding a teacher, by training on their own, by going through a magic ritual...depending on the ability really). They want to gain skill points, so they train in a similar way as with feats (with a maximum per skill depending on their character level or something like that).
The only real problem I'm having, is that I don't know how I should do the HD related stuff (HD, BAB, saves, etc). I'm not sure how much CR to charge for, let's say, 1d8 (therefore I don't know how much XP they'd need to increase their HP and such).
Now that I think about it.. I guess I should just charge them for every individual attack bonus and save bonus, just like I'd be doing with skills..
Ok, I guess I could figure some stuff out for myself if I actually think it through for a bit *smacks himself*.
How much CR would all the HD be though (d4-12)?
Judging from the cost of a feat equivelant ability, 1% would be 0.2 CR, right?
Do I divide the % of the HD by 20, and multiply that by 0.2? (d8 would be 0.15 CR then, or 150 XP times character level) Or would it be something different?

Not sure how workable I'll be able to make this.. but it'll be fun (for me as well as my players ).
Something that worries me though... I'd have to use normal classes to make characters on the fly (grunt NPCs etc).. Do you think this would be ok? I guess the classes would simply be preset packages..or something like that.
Hmm... Now that I think about it. I guess a player could opt to wait with spending his/her XP to 'purchase' a level in a certain class..

It's still a fresh idea..so it's kinda mindboggling for me at the moment

*looks at all the stuff he typed*
Hmm.. I wonder if I really had to type all that much about it to get the point across

So.. The questions would basically be.. How much would one dice of HP be worth for one level, and maybe some advice if you can think of anything

Edit: Wow.. Must really be tired or something..
Make that "divide the % of the HD by 20, and multiply that by 0.2?" "divide the % by 100?"

Edit 2: Oh yeah (yes, I think I am a bit too tired to think straight ) I was getting confused how to calculate the CR of the HD because the class feature thing had 1% for every feat equivelant ability. This told me 1% would equal 0.2 CR.. But then the rest wouldn't be correct (like HD, BAB etc).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

So all your Size costs are wrong?

...except Small.

Some "things" I didnt' posted before (I didn't want to make a kilometer-long post)

p. 8 There is a point cost even to have a 1-2 Int (look at Animals, p. 3). You should write why.

Simply because the average Animal Intelligence is 2.5 or somesuch.

p. 9 Are you applying the Silver Rule to the decimal CR or to the rounded one? You should write it. (it's to the decimal... 10 * 0.85 = 8, but the CR of the aboleth is 9)

Decimal. The aboleth was done with 0.86 as I recall (it was changed to 0.85 right at the end when I redid the Class Levels). So there are probably a few that are just out by minute fractions, but since the Silver Rule is rounded down I don't think very many should be affected.

How do you apply the Silver Rule to fractional CR? (in truth it's Negative CR... Probably you should divide by 0.85 instead of multiplying (-1 * 0.85 = -0.85... The monster is more powerful!))

I just left that to its own devices.

How do you calculate the bonus HP of oozes and constructs? (oops... Oozes don't have HP bonus in 3.5... Only construct get it)

I can't remember exactly but it worked out as +6 hp = CR +0.2 (So the Toughness feat should really be 6 hp).

p. 14 "Rustproof" colossus? 99% of the creatures are rustproof... Simply the Iron Golem should have a vulnerability to magical rust!

Yeah and 99% of creatures don't need Turn Resistance either.

p. 14 Are you saying that the CR of the Monster Manual are to low? Do you think that a Balor has a 50/50% in a fair fight with a 28 level warrior/barbarian/paladin?

Should be a fairly even match up - of course if you pander to your opponents strengths you deserve to get spanked (if I were a Balor I wouldn't necessarily wade in unprepared against that heavily armed Fighter waving the glowing Battle Axe.

p. 15 What strange formula have you used to pre-calculate the EL? It's even stranger than the Wealth Rules for Epic characters! Ah... Now I see: 4 * log2(CR) + 1. You should write it somewhere!

Strange formula indeed!

p. 17 You forgot to change the +/- sign for some modifiers (the ones that make the encounter more difficult)
What do you mean with "party outnumber opponents"? You shouldn't be telegraphic!

If your party outnumbers the enemy.

p. 19 You forgot to define what is 100%...
Probably you should have calculated the CR of the base classes as a CR and not as a percentage of the CR1 or CR20. You have just finished building a very complex system to calculate CR and then you decide to ignore it and "invent" other numbers.

I'll see what I can do.

Silver Rule: you should have put the Silver Rule near the Golden Rule, with a link to the appendix for the reasons of this rule. So a reader doesn't have to read the Appendix to be able to build a CR.

Well the Silver Rule is optional, so I didn't want to force it one people.

In the new DM guide (the 3.5) there is a paragraph about adding non-compatible classes to monsters (for example adding a level of Wizard to a giant). It's even included in the SRD. Perhaps you should put a note in your manual.

Do I need to retread old ground...?

What's happened to the ECL rules? Didn't you found a formula to convert CR to ECL?

CR and ECL are the same thing (Although some people have issues with the ability score discrepancies).

What about Epic Feats? How much are they valued?

The same as normal feats, of course you need all the prerequisites.

How much powerful does a monster become if I substitute a standard feat with an epic one?

As long as it meets the prerequisites there will be no difference.

Outsiders: there is a VERY large class of spells usable against outsiders. Shouldn't they get a bonus? It's like Undead and Turning...

If you travel to another plane then you are the Outsider.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K

Hiya Kavon matey!

I was wondering about something...

Go for it.

I'm thinking of using your system to figure out some sort of alternative leveling system that I think my players will love. I know there's probably already some similar kind of system out there that has something like this already.. I just consider it a challenge to make it work by doing it myself (so I can brag with it to my players, or whatnot. )

Good luck.

Chalk up another application of my CR system.

It's like.. you're not tied to a certain package of levels (no actual classes and all that, just the abilities to pick from.. all need to be explained for of course), instead you 'train' in certain things (or you gain XP and put it into learning certain abilities..or both..er..). I was thinking about letting 0.1 CR cost 100 xp (once the character has gained enough XP to level up, everything will cost twice as much as at 1st level, at 3rd level, everything costs 3 times as much, etc..).

Let's say...they want to learn a feat/special ability, so they find some way to learn it (by finding a teacher, by training on their own, by going through a magic ritual...depending on the ability really). They want to gain skill points, so they train in a similar way as with feats (with a maximum per skill depending on their character level or something like that).

The only real problem I'm having, is that I don't know how I should do the HD related stuff (HD, BAB, saves, etc). I'm not sure how much CR to charge for, let's say, 1d8 (therefore I don't know how much XP they'd need to increase their HP and such).

Instead why don't you keep the EXP Tables but just let the characters freeform with up to +1 worth of CR instead of 'levelling up'!?

Now that I think about it.. I guess I should just charge them for every individual attack bonus and save bonus, just like I'd be doing with skills..
Ok, I guess I could figure some stuff out for myself if I actually think it through for a bit *smacks himself*.

How much CR would all the HD be though (d4-12)?

All the various HDs are listed in the Design Parameters for classes (the percentages listed are percentages of 1 point of CR)

Judging from the cost of a feat equivelant ability, 1% would be 0.2 CR, right?

Yes.

Do I divide the % of the HD by 20, and multiply that by 0.2? (d8 would be 0.15 CR then, or 150 XP times character level) Or would it be something different?

You have it right.

Not sure how workable I'll be able to make this.. but it'll be fun (for me as well as my players ).

Thats the whole point isn't it.

Something that worries me though... I'd have to use normal classes to make characters on the fly (grunt NPCs etc).. Do you think this would be ok? I guess the classes would simply be preset packages..or something like that.

Should be okay. It will teach your players why not to overspecialise in one area.

Hmm... Now that I think about it. I guess a player could opt to wait with spending his/her XP to 'purchase' a level in a certain class..

Hey! Thats what I suggested.

It's still a fresh idea..so it's kinda mindboggling for me at the moment

*looks at all the stuff he typed*
Hmm.. I wonder if I really had to type all that much about it to get the point across

So.. The questions would basically be.. How much would one dice of HP be worth for one level, and maybe some advice if you can think of anything

Edit: Wow.. Must really be tired or something..
Make that "divide the % of the HD by 20, and multiply that by 0.2?" "divide the % by 100?"

Edit 2: Oh yeah (yes, I think I am a bit too tired to think straight ) I was getting confused how to calculate the CR of the HD because the class feature thing had 1% for every feat equivelant ability. This told me 1% would equal 0.2 CR.. But then the rest wouldn't be correct (like HD, BAB etc).