D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

p. 6: you shouldn't use dices of damage, you should use medium damage (d8 = 4.5 dam.) (the reader of the guide will probably have to convert the dices to average damage....

I was really only trying to simplify things for people - while at the same time plant the seeds for how things like that should be rated.

I don't know many Divine effects that use d3!)

Well if Bane is d12; Aligned is d8; Energy is d6 and Force is d4 what is something thats better than force going to be rated as...?

and then you could compact the Permanent Damage to CR 0.1 / 0.5 points of Perm Dam (the same for p. 7 Ray Attacks and on p. ? for Touch attacks).

I don't see the point of that.

And here we discover that you multiply multipliers (under Mummy Rot: x2 and x4 = x8... The standard rule is x6. You should put a note at the beginning of the chapter).

I'll give it some thought.

Energy Resistance: +2CR/10points = +1CR/5points?, and then a better question: should we use "quantized" units or not?

My idea to use 'quantized' units for things like Breath Weapon was my attempt to

and How many decimals do you keep during the calculation of CR?

As many as you want. I keep as many as my calculator allows. I would never add anything with more than three decimal places though (Spell-like Abilities and Summon)

You should put a link in Breath Weapon, Gaze Attacks, Ray Attacks, Touch Attacks to specific versions of them (Energy Drain, Disease...)

Mmmm.

Gaze Attacks: if you put elsewhere the note about doubling, tripling etc, you should put it even here.

Again its simply a question of space.

p. 7 : Immunities: you should add Weapons (as for Tiny Swarms)

Perhaps even in the Unusual Abilities section; since as far as I know thats the only time I saw them.

But again the thing is no matter how many abilities I rate there will always be more.

Do Integrated Cleric spells include the Bonus Domain spell? And what about the Domain special ability?

Yes (first) and no (latter).

Spell Like abilities and Summon: in the first one you have put a row for "At Will", in the second one you haven't.

Probably because I hadn't encountered a monster that could summon 'At Will'

Thanks again for the feedback mate, much appreciated.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Personally I wouldn't allow spells such as this to have a continuous effect. It's essentially an "Instantaneous" spell that really only has a duration of 1 round because that's the only way you can use it. But it really makes about as much sense to make continuous as magic missile.

This needs some consideration.

..and for the record I don't fancy taking on those revised CRs again come what may. I still haven't recovered from the Energy Draining that is 600+ revised CRs. I wouldn't wish that on Hitler.

Sorry! I didn't mean that. Neither have I! Just wanted to make sure you had 'em; in particular there's some good stuff in the MM3.5 about creature design that, at the very least, you can point at and sneer.

That chapter was an interesting exercise in 'talking' without saying much of note.

Sent again to your hotmail account, and eagerly awaiting your reply...

Okay I will reply tomorrow so don't be too eager.

I think you could be onto something with your idea about multiple opponent EL. It looks simpler than my method; and simplicity is always my mantra.

By the way for anyone who has emailed me (you know who you are) I will reply tomorrow. Its getting a bit late.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I think you could be onto something with your idea about multiple opponent EL. It looks simpler than my method; and simplicity is always my mantra.

:wink:

Yes, I think I just may be... I hope I can give you something back you can use.

Looking forward to your reply (tomorrow).

Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

:wink:

Yes, I think I just may be... I hope I can give you something back you can use.

Looking forward to your reply (tomorrow).

Okay I am going over your stuff now, I will definately email you later though, I just want to study things more closely.

...fools rush in, yadda yadda.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hey UK

I seem to have trouble being able to post as a reply to your post. So here goes as a separate post:

I get the Troll to be ECL 7 this way:

Troll CR 7.4 (from the pdf - I don't know where you get the CR 8.2 you're talking about)

9 lvls of wealth = 1.8 CR

Troll PC = 7.4 + 1.8 = 9.2 CR

9.2 * 0.85 (silver rule) = 7.82, rounded to 7.

Troll ECL 7.

So??

-Sorcica

 

[kreynolds]

Sorcica,

I'm curious...where are you getting the 9 levels of wealth? If the trolls CR is 7.2, then wouldn't you only factor 7 levels of wealth? So...

7.2*0.2=1.44+7.2=8.64
*apply silver rule*
Total CR = 7.344?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK

Hi Sorcica mate!

I seem to have trouble being able to post as a reply to your post.

These boards can be weird sometimes.

So here goes as a separate post:

I get the Troll to be ECL 7 this way:

Troll CR 7.4 (from the pdf - I don't know where you get the CR 8.2 you're talking about)

9 lvls of wealth = 1.8 CR

Troll PC = 7.4 + 1.8 = 9.2 CR

9.2 * 0.85 (silver rule) = 7.82, rounded to 7.

Troll ECL 7.

So??

Well remember that Ability Scores apply as part of the Traits factor, so when we determine the Trolls racial traits we take a closer look at its ability scores and in doing so we can see that it gains +18 to ability scores instead of the +10 (from Large size) in the CR.

So its ECL before equipment (or the silver rule) is +8.2. That becomes 6.97 after the silver rule. When we add equipment 6 levels of equipment is 8.17 (+1.2); 8 levels of equipment is 8.57 (+1.6). Applying the silver rule to equipment in this case is irrelevant since you still end up with ECL 8.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Sorcica,

I'm curious...where are you getting the 9 levels of wealth? If the trolls CR is 7.2, then wouldn't you only factor 7 levels of wealth? So...

7.2*0.2=1.44+7.2=8.64
*apply silver rule*
Total CR = 7.344?

Like this:
7 lvls of wealth = + 1.4 CR

Troll CR 7.4 + 1.4 = 8.8 CR

We then need one more lvl of wealth to account for 8th lvl = +0.2 CR

8.8 + 0.2 = 9.0

One more lvl to account for 9 th lvl = 9.2 CR

9.2 * 0.85 (silver rule) = 7.82 rounded to 7.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Well remember that Ability Scores apply as part of the Traits factor, so when we determine the Trolls racial traits we take a closer look at its ability scores and in doing so we can see that it gains +18 to ability scores instead of the +10 (from Large size) in the CR.

But of course you have already calculated that into the Trolls initial CR? I was under the impression that stats beyond that included in size adjustment counted as +/- 0.1 a piece?
Have I totally misunderstood this??

So its ECL before equipment (or the silver rule) is +8.2. That becomes 6.97 after the silver rule. When we add equipment 6 levels of equipment is 8.17 (+1.2); 8 levels of equipment is 8.57 (+1.6). Applying the silver rule to equipment in this case is irrelevant since you still end up with ECL 8.

Now I'm really confused. On p. 1 you state that all factors should be added first. Then check for golden and silver rule etc.

So what you're saying is that one should calculate the CR for equipment after the silver rule? Doesn't that begin to mess up creatures like the Balor

Where does it say so in v.4?

Oh and here's one to ruin your day Krust. Where's the CR listing for the Githyanki and the Githzerai?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

But of course you have already calculated that into the Trolls initial CR? I was under the impression that stats beyond that included in size adjustment counted as +/- 0.1 a piece?
Have I totally misunderstood this??

The Trolls CR simply includes the ability score increases for size. But if we closely examine it we can see that it gains much more than the typical size increases.

I think you can 'get away with it' for monsters but not for PCs.

Now I'm really confused. On p. 1 you state that all factors should be added first. Then check for golden and silver rule etc.

So what you're saying is that one should calculate the CR for equipment after the silver rule? Doesn't that begin to mess up creatures like the Balor

Where does it say so in v.4?

No what I said was in the Troll example, the silver rule didn't change the figures so there was no point using it.

8.2 + 1.2 (6th-level equipment) = 9.4 (7.99 after silver rule)
8.2 + 1.4 (7th) = 9.6 (8.16 after silver rule)
8.2 + 1.6 (8th) = 9.8 (8.33 after silver rule)

Therefore the Troll is ECL 8

Oh and here's one to ruin your day Krust. Where's the CR listing for the Githyanki and the Githzerai?

They are right beside the Beholder; Displacer Beast; Mind Flayer and Umber Hulk locked in WotCs revised OGL laws.

I temporarily circumnavigated those laws for the epic monsters for this technically playtest pdf, but the epic monsters are supposedly going to be updated before the release of the IH.