D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

Hm. I'm applying the silver rule in a different order, which may be wrong...

1. Calculate monster CR
2. Apply silver rule
3. Multiply PC wealth (0.2) by new monster CR.
4. Total ECL

Basically, I'm applying the silver rule immediately after determining the monster's initial CR, _then_ I'm applying PC wealth. I wasn't originally, but something about doing it in this order makes sense. Is this not the correct order to do it in?

It probably works that way as well...

8.2 x 0.85 = 6.97 you have to add 8th-level wealth so you end up with ECL 8.57.

But generally I would stick to applying the Silver Rule last.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

UK,

About the spell-like abilities section; It states that an Always Active spell-like ability is caster level x spell level x 0.005, but wouldn't you get more accurate CR modifiers if you took into account the duration of the original spell as well? Basically, I'm thinking that on average there will be a significant difference between an always active 1 hour/level spell-like ability and an always active 1 round/level spell-like ability.

Do you disagree? If so, why not take such a thing into account?

I agree with you in principle but I think with a small caveat we can avoid any rules changes.

eg. True Strike (Always Active) only works once per round. Its still 'Always Active' each round but you only gain the benefits of the spell 1/round.

Can you spot any other problem spells?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hello again mate!
I agree with you in principle but I think with a small caveat we can avoid any rules changes.

eg. True Strike (Always Active) only works once per round. Its still 'Always Active' each round but you only gain the benefits of the spell 1/round.

Can you spot any other problem spells?

Here's the DMG guidelines for continuous spell effects in magic items:

If a continuous item has an aeffect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by x4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by x2, and if the duration is 10 min/level, x1.5. If the spell has a duration of 24 hours or greater, divide the cost in half.

Side note #1: UK, if you don't have the 3.5 versions of the DMG and the MM, you definitely should. They are full of extended examples that may give you better insight into your factors.

Side note #2: Did you get the email that I sent you a couple days ago? I'd love a reply!


Wulf

 

[kreynolds]

Hello again mate!

Howdy Krust!

I agree with you in principle but I think with a small caveat we can avoid any rules changes.

eg. True Strike (Always Active) only works once per round. Its still 'Always Active' each round but you only gain the benefits of the spell 1/round.

True strike isn't what I had in mind. It has a duration of 1 round, which is different. What I'm referring to is 1 round/level, 1 minute/level, 1 hour/level, etc.

Can you spot any other problem spells?

It's not necessarily a case of problem spells, but more about the duration of same-level spells being representative of their power. For example, both magic circle against (blah) and invisibility purge are 3rd-level cleric spells, but they have different durations. The durations offset their utility. However, there is currently nothing to account for this in v4, as both spells would be rated equal as Always Active spell-like abilities.

I think in cases such as this, something to account for the difference between the always functioning utility of the two would be worth having.

 

[xanatos]

Lycanthrope: what is the Total CR? It's clearly the CR of the Animal Form + something, but the something varies (it is 1.63 or 2.63)

It tells you what the CR is for each lycanthrope...?

Werebear +5.23
Wereboar +2.63
Wererat +2.43

Yesm but sometimes you use 1,63 as the adder to the attributes, and sometimes 2,63. What is the 1 point?

Werebear: 2.6 attributes + 1.63 base lycantrophe package + 1 misterious point = 5.23
Wereboar: 1 attributes + 1.63 base lycantrophe package = 2.63

p. 3 What does Size includes?

Attack Bonuses/Penalties; Armor Class Bonuses/Penalties; Movement; Reach; Space; Ability Scores.

Then why in ability scores you write: When do Ability Scores affect Challenge Rating? As part of the Size factor.
You should write that Armor is "free" when you buy ability scores (probably under Armor)... And perhaps write somewhere the cost of Reach (I could build a small tentacled monster with reach)

p.5 Speed: is this doubling +0.2, tripling +0.4 etc? or is it x2 = 0.2, x4 = 0.4, x8 =0.6... (you should add the p. 6 note for range)

Always with D&D a double double is a triple (unless the rules state otherwise)

My point was that if you put a note somewhere, then you must put it everywhere.

Full Attack: you are summing apples with oranges and totalling apples, but you want bananas! (you sum average damage, iterative damage (without putting the /2 but with only an *) and you obtain a damage that then you'll multiply for 0.1. You should have multiplied at each passage by 0.1/0.05 to obtain a CR modifier.

You mean in each example I should have outlined all the attacks and all the iterative attacks seperately and then totalled them?

Yes probably you should

Ability Score Damage/Drain: the difference is that with the Drain the creature recovers HP?

No, the difference is that its permanent.

And it's even in the DM guide... Doh!

--- Bye

 

[xanatos]

p. 6: you shouldn't use dices of damage, you should use medium damage (d8 = 4.5 dam.) (the reader of the guide will probably have to convert the dices to average damage.... I don't know many Divine effects that use d3!) and then you could compact the Permanent Damage to CR 0.1 / 0.5 points of Perm Dam (the same for p. 7 Ray Attacks and on p. ? for Touch attacks).

And here we discover that you multiply multipliers (under Mummy Rot: x2 and x4 = x8... The standard rule is x6. You should put a note at the beginning of the chapter).

Energy Resistance: +2CR/10points = +1CR/5points?, and then a better question: should we use "quantized" units or not? and How many decimals do you keep during the calculation of CR?

You should put a link in Breath Weapon, Gaze Attacks, Ray Attacks, Touch Attacks to specific versions of them (Energy Drain, Disease...)

Gaze Attacks: if you put elsewhere the note about doubling, tripling etc, you should put it even here.

p. 7 : Immunities: you should add Weapons (as for Tiny Swarms)

Do Integrated Cleric spells include the Bonus Domain spell? And what about the Domain special ability?

Spell Like abilities and Summon: in the first one you have put a row for "At Will", in the second one you haven't.

--- Bye

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Wulf mate!

Here's the DMG guidelines for continuous spell effects in magic items:

If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by x4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by x2, and if the duration is 10 min/level, x1.5. If the spell has a duration of 24 hours or greater, divide the cost in half.

What does it say about spells that have a single effect such as True Strike?

Side note #1: UK, if you don't have the 3.5 versions of the DMG and the MM, you definitely should. They are full of extended examples that may give you better insight into your factors.

I have them, but I haven't memorised them yet.

Side note #2: Did you get the email that I sent you a couple days ago? I'd love a reply!

The last email I have of yours is from the 1st of October.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Krust!

Hiya mate!

True strike isn't what I had in mind. It has a duration of 1 round, which is different. What I'm referring to is 1 round/level, 1 minute/level, 1 hour/level, etc.

Should be easy to impose another modifier for spells; perhaps mimicking the way I handle Disease.

Spell Duration Modifier
Typical Duration
1 day+ CR x1/2
1 hour+ CR x1
1 minute+ CR x2
1 round+ CR x4

Of course I haven't tested this at all yet, this is just off the top of my head.

It's not necessarily a case of problem spells, but more about the duration of same-level spells being representative of their power. For example, both magic circle against (blah) and invisibility purge are 3rd-level cleric spells, but they have different durations. The durations offset their utility. However, there is currently nothing to account for this in v4, as both spells would be rated equal as Always Active spell-like abilities.

I think in cases such as this, something to account for the difference between the always functioning utility of the two would be worth having.

This sort of thing takes a bit of careful thought regarding possible repercussions.

I'll need to go over the PHB carefully.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

What does it say about spells that have a single effect such as True Strike?

Personally I wouldn't allow spells such as this to have a continuous effect. It's essentially an "Instantaneous" spell that really only has a duration of 1 round because that's the only way you can use it. But it really makes about as much sense to make continuous as magic missile.

I have them, but I haven't memorised them yet.

Sorry! I didn't mean that. Neither have I! Just wanted to make sure you had 'em; in particular there's some good stuff in the MM3.5 about creature design that, at the very least, you can point at and sneer.

The last email I have of yours is from the 1st of October.

Sent again to your hotmail account, and eagerly awaiting your reply...

Wulf

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

Yesm but sometimes you use 1,63 as the adder to the attributes, and sometimes 2,63. What is the 1 point?

Werebear: 2.6 attributes + 1.63 base lycantrophe package + 1 misterious point = 5.23
Wereboar: 1 attributes + 1.63 base lycantrophe package = 2.63

For the life of me I cannot actually remember - I am sure there was a good reason at the time.

I think the Lycanthrope Template breakdown may be slightly off (I would imagine Damage Reduction is definately incorrect).

Then why in ability scores you write: When do Ability Scores affect Challenge Rating? ...As part of the Size factor...

I wrote that because that was the question everyone asked me. I subsequently list all the answers.

You should write that Armor is "free" when you buy ability scores (probably under Armor)...

I don't understand you here mate?

And perhaps write somewhere the cost of Reach (I could build a small tentacled monster with reach)

Okay, so you would like to see a breakdown of the individual components of what make up the size factors. Fair point.

My point was that if you put a note somewhere, then you must put it everywhere.

Again this returns to the question of space.

Yes probably you should

And it's even in the DM guide... Doh!

Its easy to sometimes miss the little things mate.