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D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Dark Wolf 97 said:
Hey U_K and everybody!

Hiya mate! :)

Dark Wolf 97 said:
I agree that the lich should only be ECL +4, perhaps the higher HD a creature has, the less special abilities should count for. Of course, if he did the lich, he'd have to do them all, so.... :)

Just a thought :rolleyes:

Well the higher the HD the creature has the less impact the template will make on its Encounter Level anyway.
 

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Kavon

Explorer
Hey U_K :)

About the ability scores thing.. I think (for as far as I understand the situation) that I agree with that the ability scores should be counted (though it's not completely clear to me as to which ability score modifiers we're talking about here). I'll try and see if I understand this.

Ok..

an average human has 10 or 11 in all stats.

an average elf has 10 or 11 in all stats, except Dex and Con (+2/-2, evens out)
an average dwarf has the same as with the elf, except for Con and Cha
etc..

let's say that monster X has, on average, 4 points higher in Str, 2 points less in Dex, 10 points higher in Con, 2 points less in Int, and the same amount of Wis and Cha (+4, -2, +10, -2; +10 total, which tells me there should be a +1 CR here). We're talking about an average sample of the monster, just like the human is an average. Shouldn't these modifiers be counted? Or isn't this what is being talked about? (there is a large chance I've missed on some things, since I don't have the revised edition books..or I'm just being a dumbass)
If a player is allowed to play the monster as a character, the modifications to the base (the 10's and 11's) should also modify the player's ability score rolls (or the results of point-buy). I agree that the roll or the point-buy results shouldn't be counted in, but I do think the modifiers should be in there (for either PC or NPC).

I have to say that it doesn't really bother me either way, I just thought I'd get this over with, and see if I am really missing something here like I'm suspecting.

Hmm... *goes back to doing other stuff..dragon stuff*
 

Kerrick

First Post
The advantage to "Wulf's Method" is with mixed groups:

20 Wights +5 Salamanders. (20x3) + (5x6) = CR 90. CR 90 = EL 26. 25 Creatures total = +8 adjustment. EL 26 - 8 = EL 18.

I couldn't even begin to do that same calculation using UK's "Determining Encounter Level For Multiple Opponents (Mixed EL)."

Neither could I. :). Sorry... I've been under a lot of stress lately, and I can't seem to focus, so this thing's been giving me fits. I remembered that "Wulf's method" (that's kinda catchy) was for multiple CRs sometime after I posted, but I forgot that you subtract the mod, not add. I think I've got it down now.

It loses the inability to heal itself when it becomes sentient.

Umm, UK, a construct, whether sentient or not, cannot heal itself - it has to be healed through repair, unless it somehow has the ability to regenerate, or certain spells are used on it (like fire spells and the iron golem).
 

xanatos

First Post
On Lich CR:
I think you gave him too many Skill Points:
8x Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot = 48 points (I think you counted twice Move and Silently... It's divided in two rows) and not 56!

---Bye
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Kavon said:

Hiya mate! :)

Kavon said:
About the ability scores thing.. I think (for as far as I understand the situation) that I agree with that the ability scores should be counted (though it's not completely clear to me as to which ability score modifiers we're talking about here). I'll try and see if I understand this.

Ok..

an average human has 10 or 11 in all stats.

an average elf has 10 or 11 in all stats, except Dex and Con (+2/-2, evens out)
an average dwarf has the same as with the elf, except for Con and Cha
etc..

let's say that monster X has, on average, 4 points higher in Str, 2 points less in Dex, 10 points higher in Con, 2 points less in Int, and the same amount of Wis and Cha (+4, -2, +10, -2; +10 total, which tells me there should be a +1 CR here). We're talking about an average sample of the monster, just like the human is an average. Shouldn't these modifiers be counted?

Not necessarily. Simply because that when you use a monster you don't give it the benefit of rolling 4d6 and adding its racial traits to the scores; instead you take the monster exactly as its written on the page.

But PCs do get that benefit.

Kavon said:
Or isn't this what is being talked about? (there is a large chance I've missed on some things, since I don't have the revised edition books..or I'm just being a dumbass)

I think thats more or less it. :)

Kavon said:
If a player is allowed to play the monster as a character, the modifications to the base (the 10's and 11's) should also modify the player's ability score rolls (or the results of point-buy). I agree that the roll or the point-buy results shouldn't be counted in, but I do think the modifiers should be in there (for either PC or NPC).

If you don't count roll or point buy results into the PCs CR then you cannot include standard ability scores in a monsters CR.

Kavon said:
I have to say that it doesn't really bother me either way, I just thought I'd get this over with, and see if I am really missing something here like I'm suspecting.

I am happy to set v4.1 up whereby ability scores are determined for PCs and Monsters (though not the revised CRs).

Kavon said:
Hmm... *goes back to doing other stuff..dragon stuff*

:D
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey Kerrick mate! :)

Kerrick said:
Neither could I. :). Sorry... I've been under a lot of stress lately, and I can't seem to focus, so this thing's been giving me fits. I remembered that "Wulf's method" (that's kinda catchy) was for multiple CRs sometime after I posted, but I forgot that you subtract the mod, not add. I think I've got it down now.

I think Wulfs method is simpler too. :)

Kerrick said:
Umm, UK, a construct, whether sentient or not, cannot heal itself - it has to be healed through repair, unless it somehow has the ability to regenerate, or certain spells are used on it (like fire spells and the iron golem).

This is somewhat confusing. How can intelligent Undead heal themselves, but not intelligent Constructs. Also why in Savage Species is the Incarnate Construct given a Constitution score?
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

xanatos said:
On Lich CR:
I think you gave him too many Skill Points:
8x Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot = 48 points (I think you counted twice Move and Silently... It's divided in two rows) and not 56!

Yeah, I noticed that. The Lich example in the Skill Points factor is correct though.

Doesn't make much of a difference to the CR/ECL though.
 

xanatos

First Post
Templates, Celestial Template, Example of a 12 HD Celestial Template (yes, I'm a little telegraphic today!)

CR of a 12 HD Celestial = 2,03 (= CR 20 HD Celestial - 0,8 (SR/0,1 per HD))

---Bye
 
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seasong

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
This is somewhat confusing. How can intelligent Undead heal themselves, but not intelligent Constructs. Also why in Savage Species is the Incarnate Construct given a Constitution score?
The difference between intelligent undead and intelligent constructs is that UNintelligent undead can be healed by others, and unintelligent constructs can not.

The incarnate construct receives a Con score because it has become a creature of living flesh, rather than animate XXX. This is apparently a "good" thing, even though it makes them a lot weaker :).

I'm having an absolute ball* with the system, btw! I'm tossing out the Golden Rule for PCs, because they will eventually have the HD to make it moot, and recalculating their ECL every level until they reach the top is annoying. The Silver Rule, on the other hand, seems to work out perfectly - I kind of wish they'd been put together somehow, but I can understand the logic of keeping them with their own sections.

* complete with dancing around, although not really ball room style

-seasong
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hiya mate! :)

xanatos said:
Templates, Celestial Template, Example of a 12 HD Celestial Template (yes, I'm a little telegraphic today!)

CR of a 12 HD Celestial = 2,03 (= CR 20 HD Celestial - 0,8 (SR/0,1 per HD))

I think all those Templates need to be gone over again. Those multi-faceted (by HD) templates are annoying.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey seasong mate! :)

seasong said:
The difference between intelligent undead and intelligent constructs is that UNintelligent undead can be healed by others, and unintelligent constructs can not.

Unintelligent Constructs can however be repaired, and technically unintelligent undead cannot be healed but have to be 'harmed'.

seasong said:
The incarnate construct receives a Con score because it has become a creature of living flesh, rather than animate XXX. This is apparently a "good" thing, even though it makes them a lot weaker :).

Its a thing that makes no sense whatsoever. :confused:

seasong said:
I'm having an absolute ball* with the system, btw!

* complete with dancing around, although not really ball room style

:D

As long as its not the Lambada. :p

seasong said:
I'm tossing out the Golden Rule for PCs, because they will eventually have the HD to make it moot, and recalculating their ECL every level until they reach the top is annoying.

I agree.

seasong said:
The Silver Rule, on the other hand, seems to work out perfectly - I kind of wish they'd been put together somehow, but I can understand the logic of keeping them with their own sections.

Using the system you could actually recreate all the core classes so that you wouln't need the Silver Rule. ;)
 

seasong

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Unintelligent Constructs can however be repaired, and technically unintelligent undead cannot be healed but have to be 'harmed'.
I thought that intelligent constructs could be repaired also?

Using the system you could actually recreate all the core classes so that you wouln't need the Silver Rule. ;)
Well, I could, but I'm using this system transparently, in the background. And the results of the Silver Rule have so far been sufficiently dead-on that I'm disinclined to mess with it :p.

-seasong
 


Kerrick

First Post
From the MM:

Constructs...
-Cannot heal damage on their own, but can often be repaired by exposing them to a certain kind of effect (see the creature's description for details) or through use of the Craft Construct feat (see page 303). A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
It says nothing of whether the construct is intelligent or not; this applies to all constructs equally. I don't know exactly how a creature without a Con score can have fast healing...
 

seasong

First Post
I'm probably missing it somewhere. How are the summon spells broken down in this system?

I.e., what limits are set for a summon monster III?
 

GPEKO

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
If xanatos (or someone) comes up with a spreadsheet (or similar) then all well and good.

Something like this (see below, it's not finished) ??

By the way, great work Upper_Krust ! But, after reading this, I stand with those who are in favor of adding the ability scores (not due to size of course...) to the calculation, somehow.
 

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Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hi seasong mate! :)

seasong said:
I thought that intelligent constructs could be repaired also?

Absolutely. But the parallel I wanted to raise was that unintelligent creatures with no CON score could not heal themselves whereas intelligent creatures with no CON score could.

seasong said:
Well, I could, but I'm using this system transparently, in the background. And the results of the Silver Rule have so far been sufficiently dead-on that I'm disinclined to mess with it :p.

:D
 


Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Kerrick said:
From the MM:

Constructs...
-Cannot heal damage on their own, but can often be repaired by exposing them to a certain kind of effect (see the creature's description for details) or through use of the Craft Construct feat (see page 303). A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality.
It says nothing of whether the construct is intelligent or not; this applies to all constructs equally.

Exactly, and there are no examples of intelligent Constructs in the Monster Manual so I think that the parallel to the Undead type is the best evidence we have.

Kerrick said:
I don't know exactly how a creature without a Con score can have fast healing...

Technically it should be either called:

Fast Harming (Undead)
Fast Repair (Constructs)

:p
 

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