D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[CRGreathouse]

I don't know why anyone would go through the process of using UK's system with modifiers for everything down to the last detail, and then for a minute pretend that ability scores don't matter. That is a design consideration made for a crowd of folks who aren't going to care for this level of exacting detail in the first place.

If you are going to be precise, BE PRECISE.

I think I understand UK -- and if I do, I should be able to translate. I'll try to keep my own viewpoint out of this (at least for now).

Monsters have high ability modifiers (outside of size modifiers), but those modifiers just put them on par with unmodified (or barely modified) PC stats, since PC stats are much higher (elite array, 4d6 drop lowest, etc.). The only time that scores really matter is when they're combined with the elite array (or other method of making the stats higher).

Thus, the troll with Str 23 has typical strength (after taking its size into account) for a PC fighter. If a PC fighter was a troll, though, they would have their Str score, in addition to the troll's +12, so it needs to be included.

Is that fair, UK? Is that what you're saying? If not, would you explain -- because at least 3 of us would be confused if it was.

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

Hey U_K and everybody!

Originally posted by Seasong
Honestly, I think the factors are fine, but that the lich template is designed with an end ECL of +4 in mind. Bump turn resistance to +7, maybe give some DC boosts to the special abilities, and it starts to look all right again.

I agree that the lich should only be ECL +4, perhaps the higher HD a creature has, the less special abilities should count for. Of course, if he did the lich, he'd have to do them all, so....

Just a thought

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi xanatos mate!

Is the Speed-Can't Run (-0,2) the Can't Run of Zombies (that can't Run) or is it a "can't walk, can only fly/swim/???"?

The can't run of zombies and golems.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi seasong mate!

I would think that that would help the lich keep pace with a Cleric who has the same things in reverse.

Like I said, I think the factors are individually correct, but that when WotC built the lich, they were assuming it would be only 4 HD under.

And really, having had some time with it, I think I'm okay with it - I would just give the lich certain boosts for its new ECL, so its HD doesn't become a sizable disadvantage.

Mmmm, I wonder is even the Demilich going to be in trouble in this regard.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Leopold mate!

so is 4.1 coming up soon?

Thats just evil.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick matey!

Ohhh! *smites forehead mightily* I must have mis-read Wulf's way of doing the EL - I thought it was tally all the CRs up, then tack on the adder. This makes a LOT more sense! Thanks!

My pleasure mate.

BTW - something else I caught - The nonintelligent construct CR modifier should be 1.4, not 2.4.

It loses the inability to heal itself when it becomes sentient.

 

[xanatos]

Hi xanatos mate!
The can't run of zombies and golems.

Then you shouldn't put it in the middle of the various movement mode... It's a movement modifier... It should be in the CR +0.2/CR -0.2 section.

--- Bye

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Sorcica mate!

Krust.
I absolutely do not understand what you mean.
I really want to.
In my world every stat modifier that is not accounted for due to size (or magic) should be rated. It is of course important when regaring PCs, but as my example of the succubus illustrates, so is it for monsters.

I want it to be: all modifiers for size are included in size CR. All modifiers beyond that is rated individually.
I really think the other approach is wrong. I don't care about rolls of 18's or 6'6 or whatever. I care about what those stats would be with or without modifier. Nothing more.

Help me out. Your system is for me the ultimate building block to the perfect universal rpg. Give me the final tidbits to complete it.

The tidbits are already there. I have explained how ability scores affect CR. If you want to add them you are free to do so.

My position is that if you add every single ability score for monsters you have to do the same for PCs and I think that factoring 'chance dice roll' ability scores to PCs infringes too much on the +1 Level = +1 CR dynamic.

Wulf has an idea to pretend not to factor PC ability scores; but instead subtract them from monster CR. However, I am not yet convinced that is intuitive enough.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Wulf mate!

This is like deja vu all over again.

I've been saying exactly the same thing for exactly the same reasons.

I don't know why anyone would go through the process of using UK's system with modifiers for everything down to the last detail, and then for a minute pretend that ability scores don't matter. That is a design consideration made for a crowd of folks who aren't going to care for this level of exacting detail in the first place.

If you are going to be precise, BE PRECISE.

I just think it complicates the matter unnecessarily.

Its like, why don't we add racial modifiers less than +0.51.

Its like, why don't we add the exact rating for individual class levels.

I don't mind revising the system for people who want to rate ability scores exactly (maybe that could be the fundamental difference between v4 and any v4.1); but if you want to see another 600+ revised CRs along with it don't be expecting to see it before next year, because I don't plan on busting my hump on those again.

If xanatos (or someone) comes up with a spreadsheet (or similar) then all well and good.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

I think I understand UK -- and if I do, I should be able to translate. I'll try to keep my own viewpoint out of this (at least for now).

Monsters have high ability modifiers (outside of size modifiers), but those modifiers just put them on par with unmodified (or barely modified) PC stats, since PC stats are much higher (elite array, 4d6 drop lowest, etc.). The only time that scores really matter is when they're combined with the elite array (or other method of making the stats higher).

Thus, the troll with Str 23 has typical strength (after taking its size into account) for a PC fighter. If a PC fighter was a troll, though, they would have their Str score, in addition to the troll's +12, so it needs to be included.

Is that fair, UK? Is that what you're saying? If not, would you explain -- because at least 3 of us would be confused if it was.

Thats more or less it.

The difference between Monster stats and the same monster determined using my CR system is (approximately) the same as the difference between PC stats and the the same PC deteremined using my CR system.

Its just a question of how detailed you want to get. All the rules for incorporating ability scores exactly are in v4 anyway; its not like I am hiding anything.