D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Sorcica mate!

Ain't that the truth

Indeed.

Minor points? I don't know about your players, but mine sure wouldn't call 1 lvl for minor, especially when we're not talking epic play.

Well it could certainly be dangerous at 1st-level.

Thanks for answering. So you won't need any CR revised?

I'll have the MM monsters done tonight (hopefully Animals and Vermin too). Then I can finish off the ELH tomorrow.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Upper_Krust and Wulf.

All this talk about the inequality of rogues versus clerics ... aren't/weren't those issues addressed with situation CR modifiers? I seem to recall a few values Upper_Krust came up with, such as -- if the party fights undead without a cleric then increase the monster CR +1 (or some such); and if the party fights undead with more than one cleric then decrease the monster CR –1 (or some such).

There are/were a few situational modifiers that I remember neatly accounted for the "exacting" CR inequalities between the core character classes (and with a straightforward approach that I think the "silver rule" currently lacks).

I would assume that those situational modifiers can effectively render the "silver rule" moot.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Upper_Krust and Wulf.

Hiya mate!

All this talk about the inequality of rogues versus clerics ... aren't/weren't those issues addressed with situation CR modifiers?

No. Firstly those values are for modifying EL. Secondly they addressed various class combos versus monster types.

I seem to recall a few values Upper_Krust came up with, such as -- if the party fights undead without a cleric then increase the monster CR +1 (or some such); and if the party fights undead with more than one cleric then decrease the monster CR –1 (or some such).

Those are EL modifiers.

There are/were a few situational modifiers that I remember neatly accounted for the "exacting" CR inequalities between the core character classes (and with a straightforward approach that I think the "silver rule" currently lacks).

I would assume that those situational modifiers can effectively render the "silver rule" moot.

The situational modifiers were never set up to address internal class balance; I think they are much to sweeping for that.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Fair enough. EL modifiers then. But I still think that they address some of the internal class balance issues, sweeping or not. I mean, as Wulf pointed out, the Silver Rule only accounts for minimal CR differences. Well, so do the situational "class based" EL modifiers. See what I mean? It might seem too simple, when really that's the charm.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

What am I doing wrong?

Let's say I have this outsider race. They're pretty powerful, so they receive a bonus feat every HD.

So CR is 0.7 (outsider) + 0.2 (feat) = 0.9 Cr per HD. Cool.

Now someone wants to play one of these guys, so we add PC wealth each HD/lvl.

Final CR per HD/lvl = 1.1

Check with fighter, ah - the same the first 20 lvls, so lets limit the race to 20 HD.

But wait! Who wants to be a fighter anymore when this fella gets all good saves, the same BAB, 8 skill points per lvl, double the feats and only 1 hp less on average?

What am I missing?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Sorcica,

Well, they don't have any armor or weapon proficiencies. Or any attacks. And no class skills. Those are just off the top of my head...

Hey Upper_Krust!

Were you aware of the "Drive Upper_Krust Crazy" organization on the board? (DUCK for short). I have been informed by the sinister cabal that runs DUCK that I have not met my quota of random attacks on yourself, and that there is serious danger that you might soon finish tinkering with "Challenging Challenge Ratings." That, of course, must be prevented at all costs! So here goes:

1. Regarding the deconstruction of the Dragon Type Hit Dice (page 19)- you neglect to include the 13 class skills that all dragons have. (10 for being a dragon, the other three depending on species). This adds another 1.3% to the total of 79.21%, for a grand total of 80.51%. This, in turn, means that the value for Dragon Hit Dice on page 5 is incorrect; instead of saying 0.75 CR/HD, it should be 0.80 (I assume those numbers are rounded down to the nearest 0.05). You should probably recheck all your dragon CRs.

2. Bonus feats. The example for the vampire says that each bonus feat (not tied to HD progression) is worth 0.2 CR. Vampires get 5 bonus feats, so their CR is increased by +1.0 CR.

But the bonus feats in question (Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes) are all "entry level feats-" feats with no pre-requisites. A fighter who spends all his bonus feats on entry level feats will be substantially weaker than one who invests in some of the feat chains. In other words, if the bonus feats are Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack they should be worth a lot more than the five vampire bonus feats.

This could make a big difference for creatures like Sorcica's outsider mentioned above.

3. Integrated Spellcasting. This is related to the observation about chains of feats. If you have a CR 12 monster, the first few levels of integrated wizard is not worth a whole lot. But each level gets more valuable. It is like a chain of spellcasting abilities: 1st level wizard spells is a pre-requisite to (and less powerful than) 2nd level wizard spells, which is a pre-requisite to (and less powerful than) 3rd level wizard spells, and so on. Your system gives the same flat value to each. Which is like giving all feats the same value.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Well, they don't have any armor or weapon proficiencies. Or any attacks. And no skills. Those are just off the top of my head...

According to the MM, outsiders do have armor and weapon proficiencies. Even if they don't, it would still be within the silver rule to give a few. The same goes for skills.

As for attacks, you're right. I'm still a bit confused by the way full attack is rated one way for monsters and another for PC's. But still, that would still only make a +1ECL adjustment. So one character would be a 20th lvl fighter and the other a 19 HD outsider with twice the feats, almost. I know which one I'd rather be...

Or is it something else elementary I'm just not getting


Edit: Just saw Cheiromancer's add on..

I very much agree, and have been doing a bit on thinking on the subject myself. I too, have been vary of the dragon HD being 'on the edge'.

And I think that Krust is aware that not all feats are equal. Fx he's always saying toughness should grant 6 hp.
But isn't this just the way the game is designed - that some feats are weaker than oters? I'm aware that raises some problems when U_K's system is based on 1 feat = 0.2 CR. So what to do? Ignore it or change the feats (as I think UK has done with some)?

Don't know about the spellcasting though

 

[Chosen01]

Hey Krust, check out Elements of Monsters.

http://www.3ednd.com/ccproduct.php?productid=2220

Their monster creation system sounds similar to yours.

"A Complete Point-Based System for monster creation that includes pre-priced costs for all standard Monster Parts (Hit Dice, Natural Armor, Initiative Modifier, Feats, and all the rest)."

"Detailed Costing Formulas for you to use to cost your own Special Abilities and Feats."

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Sorry for being late, ENWorld just simply would not allow me to post yesterday.

Fair enough. EL modifiers then. But I still think that they address some of the internal class balance issues, sweeping or not. I mean, as Wulf pointed out, the Silver Rule only accounts for minimal CR differences. Well, so do the situational "class based" EL modifiers. See what I mean? It might seem too simple, when really that's the charm.

The Situational Modifiers cover a broad generic spectrum though, whereas the Silver Rule is very precise and specific.

I'll have a think about it though, but it all seems to fiddly to paint with a wide brush.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Let's say I have this outsider race. They're pretty powerful, so they receive a bonus feat every HD.

Okay.

So CR is 0.7 (outsider) + 0.2 (feat) = 0.9 Cr per HD. Cool.

Now someone wants to play one of these guys, so we add PC wealth each HD/lvl.

Final CR per HD/lvl = 1.1

Check with fighter, ah - the same the first 20 lvls, so lets limit the race to 20 HD.

But wait! Who wants to be a fighter anymore when this fella gets all good saves, the same BAB, 8 skill points per lvl, double the feats and only 1 hp less on average?

What am I missing?

Two things:

- Firstly you haven't added your attack progression into the mix. (Remember that monsters have their attacks added directly).

+0.2625/Level for Fighter Attack Progression over 20 Levels.

This brings your class up to +1.3625 (making it superior to the Cleric Class)

- Secondly you have no weapon proficiencies. So you would need to pay for those at the start.