D&D 3.x v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)
- Thread starter Upper_Krust
- Start date
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hiya mate! 
He says hes unable to post. Hes been away from the Forums for almost a year I think, but while he can still sign in he doesn't seem to be able to post.
I am not sure if its simply a problem with the boards (given the number of times I can't post) or his user account?
Cheiromancer said:
He says hes unable to post. Hes been away from the Forums for almost a year I think, but while he can still sign in he doesn't seem to be able to post.
I am not sure if its simply a problem with the boards (given the number of times I can't post) or his user account?
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hey ciaran mate!
A former poster to these threads possibly before your time mate. Lets just say he has a unique charm.
ciaran00 said:Anu-WHO?
A former poster to these threads possibly before your time mate. Lets just say he has a unique charm.
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Upper_Krust said:
Hey UK... My time has been fairly tight here, I haven't had a chance to really dissect the document. But I will say this, even on the first read through, I noticed some things that just need an editor. (I consider that a different issue than comments on the system, but just as important). So-- proofread.
I wish you'd figure out the formula behind the core treasure allocations and give me that. Some of us don't play those high-powered epic games, you know.
Something in me tells me that it is better to tie treasure to EL. There is a difference between CR8 (a group of 12 orcs, EL7) and CR8 (a single creature, EL13).
Under a system that awards treasure based on CR, both encounters grant the same reward, when they are clearly not equal risks.
Now, looking at your table, it seems it is already exponential-- meaning, you can't just add up all the CRs and get the same result.
Not sure what I am trying to say here. I guess my instinct (based on the way that group EL is determined) is that the CR-to-Treasure chart could work the same way. It doesn't, though, so I'd either add some very clear instructions and multiple group examples, or I would adjust the table to work on EL.
As a GM I'd prefer to award treasure, like XP, based on EL-- especially since there are "situational modifiers" to EL, you may want to consider those when the PCs get their reward.
Wulf
Upper_Krust
Legend
Wulf Ratbane said:
Hi Wulf mate!
Wulf Ratbane said:
I understand.
Wulf Ratbane said:But I will say this, even on the first read through, I noticed some things that just need an editor. (I consider that a different issue than comments on the system, but just as important). So-- proofread.
I must admit that I haven't really had a chance to fully read over the document (lately anyway). But I will do so before I post it in these boards.
Wulf Ratbane said:
Well if you mean core as in official rules then there is no formula...
Wulf Ratbane said:Some of us don't play those high-powered epic games, you know.
...if you mean core as in Levels 1-20 then I have posted the Treasure formula (earlier today):
(90*CR+1*CR) +30
Wulf Ratbane said:
That was Anubis idea as well. However as I see it this makes no actual difference.
He claimed that it leads to disproportionate Treasure if the CRs are of the upper band of a given EL (for Monsters) and of a lower band the same EL for PCs. But this actually evens out since PCs of a high band facing monsters of a low band will vice versa get less.
Wulf Ratbane said:
Single Orc (CR 2/3) Treasure = 90 gp each (12 = 1080gp)
Single CR 8 Monster Treasure = 6510 gp
Wulf Ratbane said:
Thats because you have the wrong Table (at least the Treasure portion is wrong). I only worked out the Treasure equation last night, so your prototype v5 won't have it. Here is the amended Table.
Table 2-6: Wealth
Level/ECL/CR PC Wealth NPC Wealth Treasure
1 100 25 210
2 800 200 570
3 2700 675 1110
4 6400 1600 1830
5 12,500 3125 2730
6 21,600 5400 3810
7 34,300 8575 5070
8 51,200 12,800 6510
9 72,900 18,225 8130
10 100,000 25,000 9930
11 133,100 33,275 11,910
12 172,800 43,200 14,070
13 219,700 54,925 16,410
14 274,400 68,600 18,930
15 337.500 84,375 21,630
16 409,600 102,400 24,510
17 491,300 122,825 27,540
18 583,200 145,800 30,810
19 685,900 171,475 34,230
20 800,000 200,000 37,830
21 926,100 231,525 41,610
22 1,064,800 266,200 45,570
23 1,216,700 304,175 49,710
24 1,382,400 345,600 54,030
25 1,562,500 390,625 58,530
26 1,757,600 439,400 63,210
27 1,968,300 492,075 68,070
28 2,195,200 548,800 73,110
29 2,438,900 609,725 78,330
30 2,700,000 675,000 83,730
40 6,400,000 1,600,000 147,630
50 12,500,000 3,125,000 229,530
60 21,600,000 5,400,000 329,430
70 34,300,000 8,575,000 447,330
80 51,200,000 12,800,000 583,230
90 72,900,000 18,225,000 737,100
100 100,000,000 25,000,000 909,030
Wulf Ratbane said:
Anubis idea was to use the average between CRs of a given EL.
Wulf Ratbane said:
Thats an interesting point, however are you saying a monster should possess less treasure depending on the circumstances surrounding its defeat - I am not so sure thats right.
FINALLY . . . The ANUBIS has COME BACK to EN WORLD!
No, it has not been a year. The actual amount of time is more like four months. Anyway, on to business.
I'm here to discuss the v5 system of giving away treasure that I like to call "Santahall On Crack". (Note: Santahall is the fusion of Santa Claus and Monte Hall via fusion dance.) Now I have some huge problems with this system, primarily the fact that combining the system with the ridiculo0us notion of counting ability scores for PCs gives away way too much treasure.
First off, I'll assume that most DMs like to stick reasonably close to the wealth by level. That said, a PC by v5 is CR 2 if standard point buy is used, and thus a party of four is EL 9 (CR 2+2+2+2=8 = EL 13; EL -4 for four people = EL 9). This means 13-1/3 EL 5 encounters are needed for this party to gain 1000 XP per person and reach Level 2.
Unfortunately, not only will such encounters likely prove far too difficult, but all such encounters will give ridiculous amounts of wealth. Here is the new treasure formula:
90 * CR +1 * (CR) +30
Let's start with something simple, shall we? Understand that Level 1 wealth is 100 and Level 2 wealth is 800, meaning each person needs 700 over the course of the level, or 2800 total. This will simplify to about 3K in wealth over the course of Level 1.
Using the above formula, a CR 2 creature gives roughly 570 gold. If we have 13-1/3 EL 5 encounters using all CR 2 (and thus EL 5) creatures, however, that gives the party 7600 gold, or 1900 per person! See the problem? The PCs already have 2-1/2 times the appropriate wealth thanks to determining treasure by CR and factoring in PC ability scores. This gets ever worse using more lesser creatures
A CR 1 creature gives roughly 210 gold. 13-1/3 EL 5 encounters using all CR 1 creatures (requiring 53-1/3 CR 1 creatures) gives an insane 11,200 gold, or 2800 per person! Now the PCs, by Level 2, have the wealth of a Level 3 character, and in addition, their CR gets another bump to where the CR/EL requirements of opponents continue going up, hiking the awards as well!
This problem only gets worse at higher levels, as you can calculate for yourselves.
My system, however, gives treasure based on EL. Here is my written explanation:
Well, after doing some checking, my proposal doesn't really work very well at all. At low levels, it totally bombs due to the huge jumps in EL at the initial levels. I guess relative treasure don't work after all!
Anyway, I've been thinking very hard about this, and I think I have come up with a solution. The ONLY possible bad thing about the solution is that wealth gained during gaming would not exactly match wealth from the tables at certain points. Then again, I don't know a single campaign where those tables are followed to the number, so the differences are within acceptable limits. All things considered, it all balances out in the end because although you get more treasure at the low end of a particular EL, you get less treasure at the high end of the same EL. All in all it's the ONLY solution that works at ALL levels.
Indeed, you must give out treasure PER EL (as you guessed at one point), and have a specific level of treasure for each EL. This of course would normally give us the problem of giving more treasure to higher level characters within the same EL, right? WRONG. By taking the average needed for every level within a given EL, you get an average amount of treasure per encounter within that EL.
In order to do this, though, you must change things at ALL levels, not just epic levels. I present to you the following chart:
For every value that is within the parameters of the DMG, I went ahead and assigned a Treasure Level from the DMG. The first column is the EL of the encounter. The second column is what the value of a treasure from such an encounter should be in order to keep PCs with wealth parameters. The third column gives us the Treasure Level from the DMG to use that matches those values, as per p.170 of the DMG. Five Treasure Levels will of course never be used, but that's okay. Each Treasure Level indicated gives an average of the indicated amount of treasure and thus keeps PCs within wealth guidelines. Over Treasure Level 20, it is of course up to the DM to assign treasure that is worth a total of about the given value, as per the suggestions in the ELH about not randomly generating epic treasure.
The numbers in the second column were obtained through a method similar to the one I gave you before for obtaining treasure values per level. The formula seems more complex, but it actually isn't and this is unfortunately the only way to get accurate treasure numbers. It's no more complicated than your entire CR system. The formula is as follows:
{ [ (calculated wealth for first level of next EL) - (calculated wealth for bottom level of current EL) ] *4 } / 13 1/3 / (number of levels in current EL)
That looks even more intimidating than before, of course, and likely needs explanation. What it means is subtract the wealth of the bottom level of the current EL from the wealth of the bottom level of the next EL up (because that's how much wealth should be accumulated through that particular EL), multiply the result by 4, and then divided it by 13 1/3. Then finish it up by dividing the result by the number of levels within the current EL. Remember that by the system, 13 1/3 encounters is the technical norm, and that is where I got the number of course. Of course there is an even easier way to get the following numbers, which I will get to later. Now it is time for an example to explain. The following is how you get the value of an EL 21 treasure:
EL 21 = Levels 32-39
EL 22 = Levels 40-47
PC Level 40 (bottom level of EL 22) Wealth: 6,400,000
PC Level 32 (bottom level of EL 21) Wealth: 3,276,800
For this formula, it has been shown to me that the functions of * 4 and / 13-1/3 are much more easily expressed with a single function of * .3
6,400,000 - 3,276,800 = 3,123,200
3,123,200 * .3 = 936,960
936,960 / 8 (number of levels within EL 21) = 117,120
As I said, PERFECT. This finally fixes the problems with wealth and treasure, assuming you use the wealth formula that has been settled upon. I know this is a bit complex, but then again, it's 255% necessary. You changed the way to CR/EL system works, which breaks the current treasure system by default because it was run based around the old CR/EL system. As such, there were bound to be complications when wealth was changed, and as such, treasure needed to be changed right along with it.
Anyway, problem solved.
Okay, it's not perfect, but it's as perfect as possible in such a situation. There are very small issues at low levels and some small issues regarding wealth as you travel from the bottom of an EL to the top compared to characters created and started near the top of the EL, but other than that, it's a thousand times more accurate than the Santahall formulas v5 spits out.
The only requirements are getting rid of the ridiculous notion that PC ability scores (beyond racial modifiers) need to be counted and using EL to determine treasure. For PCs' CRs, simply take Level = CR unless there are big factors (templates and the such); the ability scores, however, should be ignored except for modifiers. Treasure is simple using the formula I've presented here.
Anyway, UK thinks my formula is whack while I've proven that his give far too much wealth. Again, I assume that most DMs try to stick close to the wealth by level. Thoughts?
[Edit: Modified to include separate values for all ELs 1-20.]
No, it has not been a year. The actual amount of time is more like four months. Anyway, on to business.
I'm here to discuss the v5 system of giving away treasure that I like to call "Santahall On Crack". (Note: Santahall is the fusion of Santa Claus and Monte Hall via fusion dance.) Now I have some huge problems with this system, primarily the fact that combining the system with the ridiculo0us notion of counting ability scores for PCs gives away way too much treasure.
First off, I'll assume that most DMs like to stick reasonably close to the wealth by level. That said, a PC by v5 is CR 2 if standard point buy is used, and thus a party of four is EL 9 (CR 2+2+2+2=8 = EL 13; EL -4 for four people = EL 9). This means 13-1/3 EL 5 encounters are needed for this party to gain 1000 XP per person and reach Level 2.
Unfortunately, not only will such encounters likely prove far too difficult, but all such encounters will give ridiculous amounts of wealth. Here is the new treasure formula:
90 * CR +1 * (CR) +30
Let's start with something simple, shall we? Understand that Level 1 wealth is 100 and Level 2 wealth is 800, meaning each person needs 700 over the course of the level, or 2800 total. This will simplify to about 3K in wealth over the course of Level 1.
Using the above formula, a CR 2 creature gives roughly 570 gold. If we have 13-1/3 EL 5 encounters using all CR 2 (and thus EL 5) creatures, however, that gives the party 7600 gold, or 1900 per person! See the problem? The PCs already have 2-1/2 times the appropriate wealth thanks to determining treasure by CR and factoring in PC ability scores. This gets ever worse using more lesser creatures
A CR 1 creature gives roughly 210 gold. 13-1/3 EL 5 encounters using all CR 1 creatures (requiring 53-1/3 CR 1 creatures) gives an insane 11,200 gold, or 2800 per person! Now the PCs, by Level 2, have the wealth of a Level 3 character, and in addition, their CR gets another bump to where the CR/EL requirements of opponents continue going up, hiking the awards as well!
This problem only gets worse at higher levels, as you can calculate for yourselves.
My system, however, gives treasure based on EL. Here is my written explanation:
Well, after doing some checking, my proposal doesn't really work very well at all. At low levels, it totally bombs due to the huge jumps in EL at the initial levels. I guess relative treasure don't work after all!
Anyway, I've been thinking very hard about this, and I think I have come up with a solution. The ONLY possible bad thing about the solution is that wealth gained during gaming would not exactly match wealth from the tables at certain points. Then again, I don't know a single campaign where those tables are followed to the number, so the differences are within acceptable limits. All things considered, it all balances out in the end because although you get more treasure at the low end of a particular EL, you get less treasure at the high end of the same EL. All in all it's the ONLY solution that works at ALL levels.
Indeed, you must give out treasure PER EL (as you guessed at one point), and have a specific level of treasure for each EL. This of course would normally give us the problem of giving more treasure to higher level characters within the same EL, right? WRONG. By taking the average needed for every level within a given EL, you get an average amount of treasure per encounter within that EL.
In order to do this, though, you must change things at ALL levels, not just epic levels. I present to you the following chart:
Code:
EL Treasure Value Treasure Level
==================================================
1 210 1
2 300 1 (+90 gp)
3 390 1 (+180 gp)
4 480 1 (+270 gp)
5 570 2
6 840 3
7 1,110 4
8 1,470 5
9 1,830 6
10 2,730 7
11 3,810 8
12 5,070 9
13 7,320 11
14 10,920 12
15 15,240 14
16 20,280 15
17 29,280 16
18 43,680 18
19 60,960 19
20 81,120 20
21 117,120The numbers in the second column were obtained through a method similar to the one I gave you before for obtaining treasure values per level. The formula seems more complex, but it actually isn't and this is unfortunately the only way to get accurate treasure numbers. It's no more complicated than your entire CR system. The formula is as follows:
{ [ (calculated wealth for first level of next EL) - (calculated wealth for bottom level of current EL) ] *4 } / 13 1/3 / (number of levels in current EL)
That looks even more intimidating than before, of course, and likely needs explanation. What it means is subtract the wealth of the bottom level of the current EL from the wealth of the bottom level of the next EL up (because that's how much wealth should be accumulated through that particular EL), multiply the result by 4, and then divided it by 13 1/3. Then finish it up by dividing the result by the number of levels within the current EL. Remember that by the system, 13 1/3 encounters is the technical norm, and that is where I got the number of course. Of course there is an even easier way to get the following numbers, which I will get to later. Now it is time for an example to explain. The following is how you get the value of an EL 21 treasure:
EL 21 = Levels 32-39
EL 22 = Levels 40-47
PC Level 40 (bottom level of EL 22) Wealth: 6,400,000
PC Level 32 (bottom level of EL 21) Wealth: 3,276,800
For this formula, it has been shown to me that the functions of * 4 and / 13-1/3 are much more easily expressed with a single function of * .3
6,400,000 - 3,276,800 = 3,123,200
3,123,200 * .3 = 936,960
936,960 / 8 (number of levels within EL 21) = 117,120
As I said, PERFECT. This finally fixes the problems with wealth and treasure, assuming you use the wealth formula that has been settled upon. I know this is a bit complex, but then again, it's 255% necessary. You changed the way to CR/EL system works, which breaks the current treasure system by default because it was run based around the old CR/EL system. As such, there were bound to be complications when wealth was changed, and as such, treasure needed to be changed right along with it.
Anyway, problem solved.
Okay, it's not perfect, but it's as perfect as possible in such a situation. There are very small issues at low levels and some small issues regarding wealth as you travel from the bottom of an EL to the top compared to characters created and started near the top of the EL, but other than that, it's a thousand times more accurate than the Santahall formulas v5 spits out.
The only requirements are getting rid of the ridiculous notion that PC ability scores (beyond racial modifiers) need to be counted and using EL to determine treasure. For PCs' CRs, simply take Level = CR unless there are big factors (templates and the such); the ability scores, however, should be ignored except for modifiers. Treasure is simple using the formula I've presented here.
Anyway, UK thinks my formula is whack while I've proven that his give far too much wealth. Again, I assume that most DMs try to stick close to the wealth by level. Thoughts?
[Edit: Modified to include separate values for all ELs 1-20.]
Last edited:
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
Upper_Krust, you are a genius!
At 13.333 encounters per level and a 4 PC party, the total amount of treasure awarded is _exactly_ the recommended PC treasure for that level!
Very elegant design.
One minor quibble- anyone who remembers their order of operations will misread the expression (90*CR+1*CR) +30 as being equivalent to (90*CR)+(1*CR)+30. What you want to say is something like 90*CR*(CR+1)+30.
[edit]
Welcome back Anubis!
If treasure is awarded according to party level, it all works out. A level 1 party (no matter what their ability scores) that gets 2800 gp before advancing to second level will have the appropriate amount of treasure.
Not coincidentally, 13.3333 encounters each of which provide 210 gp will yield exactly 2800 gp. Similarly for other levels.
If an encounter gives more (or less) experience than a standard encounter, it should give proportionately more (or less) treasure.
Which is what your method does, by tying things to EL.
I bet there is a simpler method of doing all this...
[/edit]
At 13.333 encounters per level and a 4 PC party, the total amount of treasure awarded is _exactly_ the recommended PC treasure for that level!
Very elegant design.
One minor quibble- anyone who remembers their order of operations will misread the expression (90*CR+1*CR) +30 as being equivalent to (90*CR)+(1*CR)+30. What you want to say is something like 90*CR*(CR+1)+30.
[edit]
Welcome back Anubis!
If treasure is awarded according to party level, it all works out. A level 1 party (no matter what their ability scores) that gets 2800 gp before advancing to second level will have the appropriate amount of treasure.
Not coincidentally, 13.3333 encounters each of which provide 210 gp will yield exactly 2800 gp. Similarly for other levels.
If an encounter gives more (or less) experience than a standard encounter, it should give proportionately more (or less) treasure.
Which is what your method does, by tying things to EL.
I bet there is a simpler method of doing all this...
[/edit]
Last edited:
Cheiromancer said:
You see, if that were the case, you would be right. As it stands, you are not, as treasure is not awarded by party level but by either CR or EL. Awarding by party level simply is not possible unless the only encounters your PCs face are the ones that are of the exact same EL, something which I will say right now never ever happens in any game.
The way UK's system is designed, as shown in my post, gives totally incorrect amounts of treasure because it is based on individual creatures' CRs. Also, counting ability scores screws it all up as well.
A Level 1 party is supposedly EL 5, meaning it takes 13-1/3 EL 5 encounters for them to reach Level 2. Already ludicrous. Add in that it takes four CR 1 creatures to equal an EL 5 encounter, and it gets worse as each one is worth 210 gold as per the formula, meaning that's 840 gold per encounter. That equals 11,200 gold, far more than a Level 1 party should ever come close to getting.
See the problem now?
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
If an encounter gives X% of the xp needed to go up a level, it should also give X% of the treasure needed to have the appropriate wealth of that level.
So if there are 10 encounters from level 1 to level 2, each should be worth 280 gp. If there are 4 encounters, each should be worth 700 gp.
So if there are 10 encounters from level 1 to level 2, each should be worth 280 gp. If there are 4 encounters, each should be worth 700 gp.
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
The experience point awards table (2-5 in v5) could be modified to give the suggested amount of treasure for such an encounter.
[edit] or maybe not. The numbers are screwy. For one thing, the ratio between gp and xp is given by gp/xp= 0.3 x (level+1) +1/(10 x level). Maybe Anubis' method is the way to go.[/edit]
[edit] or maybe not. The numbers are screwy. For one thing, the ratio between gp and xp is given by gp/xp= 0.3 x (level+1) +1/(10 x level). Maybe Anubis' method is the way to go.[/edit]
Last edited:
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