D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Kavon]

@Kavon:
As you have read, I'd really like to see your rules. If you don't have anything against it, I could look into them and give comments on them. I have already experience in that - partly natural, partly because I did the same for the auhtors of EoM (hence the naming of me in the credits ). But I can't promise that I will be really useful - without playtesting one finds only so much errors and other issues and I don't have now a gaming group where I could use such rules.

Oy
Well, I think I'd feel more comfortable with showing it to people if I actually have it in a bit more finished package

*is still busy working on all kinds of things*

 

[Verequus]

Hi Upper_Krust!

The first question is solved by myself, so no need to answer - but still the second question is open. But some other unclear points came up through the studying:

What are the differences between v4 and v5 (except more correct numbers and maybe better examples)? I discovered following ones: Different handling of ability scores (Is that already the final version?), handling of the ECL, only three columns instead four at the CR listings (more clearly than before),
different EL calculations (now easier and yet better).

I caught also some errors:
-Page 3: The ooze traits CR modifier total for intelligent oozes is 2.7, but it should be 2.6. It is correct in the traits table, not in the breakdown.
-Page 4: I don't find the Native Subtype, which should offset a little bit of the Outsider-CR penalty.
-Page 9, in the paragraph about ECLs you wrote: "For thos epeople who wish to use the Silver Rule" - the second space is one letter too much left. Substituting Core Rules: The Balor example is wrong - 2/3 of 33 are 22, not 21.
-On page 15 the last sentence has been cut off.
-Page 17, Using Encounter levels: "This latter element allow s DMs" - "allows" with a space, "before requiring a period to rest; recuperate and restock." - a semicolon instead a normal colon. The example with the balor regarding the Opponent Role: "Nemesis versus EL 16-20 Party" - the range must be 17-20,
so the next row regarding "Background only" is wrong, too. Experience Points: You mention the Party EL, but you don't say, that the Party EL has to be calculated like every other opponent group. Situational modifiers: "Hazardous Conditions for Party = -2 EL" - shouldn't be that +2 EL, because it makes the
encounter more difficult?

I hope I could help with that listing - there are some errors taken over from version 4. But after over 1000 downloads from v4 before I saw v5 I believed that someone else told you said already. Overall, v5 is an improvement over v4.

Do you include the CR modifiers for the divine abilities etc.?

How many digits after the dot count really for a CR modifier? Three? Or four? Or should they never be rounded?

If character level = CR is true both in the core rules and in your system, how does it come, that the CRs of the monsters are roughly 1.5 times bigger in your system than in the core rules?

Why do characters of lower levels in a group recieve less EP than higher level ones? In the core rules they received at first the equal amount, then in the revised version even more than the others. Okay, some guys can abuse the 3.5 version through making magic items, getting GPs and through adventuring a lot of extra EPs, which offsets the difference regarding their level, having so a net surplus of GPs, but with your system noone wants to get behind the others because they will fall more and more behind the others - the only solution for this situation is then solo adventuring.

Do you use for the creation of the PDF a LaTeX file? I didn't catch that until now, but it looks so. Please feel free to ignore (in your point of view) too demanding/time-consuming questions: Can I have a copy of the preamble and the code for the gray boxes? Do you use an automatic coloring of the tables or made you that per hand? How did you create the big two horizontal lines in the heading of the pages? Two \hrule-commands? Where did you buy that really fancy font you use for the chapter titles? Yes, I use LaTeX, too. I wrote, for example, my report for an internship and it looked really that good, but some advanced features are still beyound my skills...

Being German, I need to know the answer of the following grammatical question: What is correct: CR-modifier or CR modifier? With or without the hyphen? If I don't ask that, I won't never know. (I had even to look up the meaning of "mate" to assure myself - although I already guessed
it - of the real meaning .) And for what does the abbreviation NB stand?

Oy
Well, I think I'd feel more comfortable with showing it to people if I actually have it in a bit more finished package

*is still busy working on all kinds of things*

I understand that. But how about a small talk about the general design guidelines, so I know at least, what can I expect?

I'm not so much a system designer, but I remember the discussion over, what should the 4th edition should contain. Someone mentioned that he don't like that even the lowly expert has the same fighting abilities as as wizard although the expert doesn't adventure, so he proposed to separate skills, BAB and saves regarding the improvement. I think, for a classless system this is a must-do, but it should be taken farther - hit dice, BAB, saves, skills, feats, class abilities (defense bonus from d20 Modern would be a fine inclusion) and special abilities can be taken each separately, for balancing purposes with point-buy - every level gives x points, every item on the list costs points relative to its benefit (SKReynolds proposed already a point-buy for feats on
his website).

Now the decision has to be made of the design goal - what is the limit for every category? Should the maximum be, what a single-classed character can reach: Every level one hit die, BAB as a fighter, good saves, maximum ranks like class skills, 18 feats over 20 levels, caster level of 20, 10d6 sneak attack...? This doesn't take following things into account: 1. Through ECLs not every level provides a hit die, boni to BAB and saves and ranks to skills. 2. Prestige classes allow the bypassing of maxima - boni to skill to the equivalent of the level of the prestige class, one PC (the kensai?) allows even the improvement of the BAB! 3. Prestige classes have prerequisites and give more advantages than the core classes.

What could be the solution? Simple allowing the bypassing of the mentioned maximums. Maybe there should be a minimum like having at least receiving every odd levels one hit die (How about getting rid of the d4 as hit die? It is only a legacy.), at least poor saves, at least wizard BAB. This could be a min-maxing paradise but I believe this would dispose the need of prestige classes and some unbalancing factors are so removed, as long there aren't per se unbalancing components like the Hulking Hurler has. Or maybe a maximum of two times the level compared to the original rules?

So, what do you think?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Upper_Krust!

Hiya mate!

The first question is solved by myself, so no need to answer - but still the second question is open. But some other unclear points came up through the studying:

Fire away.

What are the differences between v4 and v5 (except more correct numbers and maybe better examples)?

To be honest I can't remember. Its been that long ago.

I discovered following ones: Different handling of ability scores (Is that already the final version?), handling of the ECL, only three columns instead four at the CR listings (more clearly than before),
different EL calculations (now easier and yet better).

I am sure there are a number of changes - I think there were about fifty altogether, some large some small.

I caught also some errors:
-Page 3: The ooze traits CR modifier total for intelligent oozes is 2.7, but it should be 2.6. It is correct in the traits table, not in the breakdown.
-Page 4: I don't find the Native Subtype, which should offset a little bit of the Outsider-CR penalty.
-Page 9, in the paragraph about ECLs you wrote: "For thos epeople who wish to use the Silver Rule" - the second space is one letter too much left. Substituting Core Rules: The Balor example is wrong - 2/3 of 33 are 22, not 21.
-On page 15 the last sentence has been cut off.
-Page 17, Using Encounter levels: "This latter element allow s DMs" - "allows" with a space, "before requiring a period to rest; recuperate and restock." - a semicolon instead a normal colon. The example with the balor regarding the Opponent Role: "Nemesis versus EL 16-20 Party" - the range must be 17-20,
so the next row regarding "Background only" is wrong, too. Experience Points: You mention the Party EL, but you don't say, that the Party EL has to be calculated like every other opponent group. Situational modifiers: "Hazardous Conditions for Party = -2 EL" - shouldn't be that +2 EL, because it makes the
encounter more difficult?

I hope I could help with that listing - there are some errors taken over from version 4.

I think I have most of them sorted in v6. Remember v5 was only ever given away in the prototype stages anyway.

But after over 1000 downloads from v4 before I saw v5 I believed that someone else told you said already.

I am sure I have some of those errors corrected thanks to feedback

Overall, v5 is an improvement over v4.

Thanks.

Do you include the CR modifiers for the divine abilities etc.?

In the IH, not the appendices.

How many digits after the dot count really for a CR modifier? Three? Or four? Or should they never be rounded?

I don't think I go beyond three.

If character level = CR is true both in the core rules and in your system, how does it come, that the CRs of the monsters are roughly 1.5 times bigger in your system than in the core rules?

Same as WotC ECL - thats why.

Why do characters of lower levels in a group recieve less EP than higher level ones? In the core rules they received at first the equal amount, then in the revised version even more than the others. Okay, some guys can abuse the 3.5 version through making magic items, getting GPs and through adventuring a lot of extra EPs, which offsets the difference regarding their level, having so a net surplus of GPs, but with your system noone wants to get behind the others because they will fall more and more behind the others - the only solution for this situation is then solo adventuring.

Theres a flaw in v5s EXP table - sorted out in v6.

Do you use for the creation of the PDF a LaTeX file?

No I use pagemaker and then acrobat.

I didn't catch that until now, but it looks so.

Nope.

Please feel free to ignore (in your point of view) too demanding/time-consuming questions:

Don't be silly, fire away.

Can I have a copy of the preamble and the code for the gray boxes?

'Preamble', 'code' you have lost me mate?

Do you use an automatic coloring of the tables or made you that per hand?

Its hand made. Pagemakers tabling system was a bit poor.

How did you create the big two horizontal lines in the heading of the pages?

With underlines.

Two \hrule-commands?

Nope.

Where did you buy that really fancy font you use for the chapter titles?

Yes, I use LaTeX, too. I wrote, for example, my report for an internship and it looked really that good, but some advanced features are still beyound my skills...

I have never used LaTeX.

Being German, I need to know the answer of the following grammatical question: What is correct: CR-modifier or CR modifier? With or without the hyphen? If I don't ask that, I won't never know. (I had even to look up the meaning of "mate" to assure myself - although I already guessed it - of the real meaning .)

I wan't aware of any difference.

And for what does the abbreviation NB stand?

Its Latin and stands for Nota Bene which means 'note well'.

 

[Kavon]

Hey RuleMaster

I understand that. But how about a small talk about the general design guidelines, so I know at least, what can I expect?

That shouldn't be too much, I guess
Though I always kinda feel bad about talking about all this in U_K's topics, and I don't really feel like making my own thread about it, since.. well, the reasons I already stated in my other reply.

Anyway, I guess I'll just give a brief example of the basics of the system.
Ok, let's see... Other than racial traits/abilities (which are all strictly things that someone would be born with, not things that would've been learned through the society, like the weapon proficiency with elves, etc), there is no predesigned set of abilities to choose.
The experience for character levels remains the same (1st level to 2nd level 1000 XP, etc), but there are no class levels whatsoever. Instead, players buy 'slots' (for lack of a better name) with which they 'purchase' their traits/abilities. At first level one slot costs 5 XP, and every level thereafter adds an additional 5 XP to that (10 XP for level 2, 15 XP for level 3, etc). This makes it so that 200 'slots' always equal 1 character level.
There is no maximum for anything, since someone would be sacrificing one thing in place of another (lots of skill points, hit points, saves, attack bonus, you name it = less of other things). As long as things have the correct cost, this should work out well.
If a player wants to get an ability that wouldn't be really easy to obtain, like being able to fly, or what not, the only restrictions on that would be in game, since the character would need to find a way to get the ability to fly..somehow. Certain races have access to certain things from the get go though, which would be part of their racial traits. So (normally) they'd be able to improve upon these things by their selves.

Besides this, I'm also working on that magic system I mentioned, as well as a different initiative system, which incorporates weapon speeds (simply because my players like weapon speeds). Right now I'm trying to find a nice balance between weapons and damaging magic, and what costs they should all have (the weapon/armor proficiency thing will be quite different as well, though the thing I have right now is not really what I'm looking for).
I'll be changing the way magic items work too, since the current system wouldn't work anymore (and I'm trying to keep away from money being a great part of balancing a character, since putting XP/slots into having a wealth allotment just wasn't going to work..since it would make little sense, especially with how my campaign world works).

Uh.. I think I forgot some things, but I guess this should be good enough for now anyway (and I'm going to retire for the night, so I don't feel like going over it again right now )
Anyway, I hope this gives you an idea of what I'm working on.

 

[Verequus]

Hi Upper_Krust!

How many digits after the dot count really for a CR modifier? Three? Or four? Or should they never be rounded?

I don't think I go beyond three.

No, you go beyound three. The examples, I discovered: Page 5, Gnome spell-like abilities: 0.0125. The Revised Challenge Ratings contain ca. 20 examples - Bearded Devil 10.88575 and Erinyes 18.72125 are both the number 1.

Oh, and I discovered an error, I missed, at the item 9.15 Regeneration: "CR +0.1.5/point of Regeneration with a single vulnerability" - +0.1.5 instead 0.15.

Also I forgot to ask: If the house rule "All skills are class skills" or its little brother "All ranks cost only one skill point" is in effect, how does it change the challenge ratings?

Can I have a copy of the preamble and the code for the gray boxes?

'Preamble', 'code' you have lost me mate?

LaTeX is a markup language similar to HTML, although more sophisticated and more or less specialised for writing books, especially for mathematics. The preamble is like the head of a HTML file and the code is simply the equivalent of COLOR=&FFFFFF or how that goes. LaTeX commands start usually with '\' like the mentioned \hrule. I didn't know that pagemaker produces so beautiful documents as LaTeX, so I'm surprised.

And is the origin of the fancy font a secret? I'd really like to use it myself. This somehow archaic and still modern look...

Hi Kavon!

Though I always kinda feel bad about talking about all this in U_K's topics, and I don't really feel like making my own thread about it, since.. well, the reasons I already stated in my other reply.

I thought over this, too. But I decided to bring it up here because:
1. U_K is a nice guy - so surely he won't have anything against a little sharing of space.
2. This topic won't last long anymore - one or two month before it is outdated.
3. Only a few general posts about your system don't justify a new thread, because of ... the reasons you already stated in your other reply. ;-)

U_K, I'm not wrong with 1. and 2., am I?

Other than racial traits/abilities (which are all strictly things that someone would be born with, not things that would've been learned through the society, like the weapon proficiency with elves, etc), there is no predesigned set of abilities to choose.

This is good - no more reincarnation problems (if I wouldn't use EoM ;-)).

At first level one slot costs 5 XP, and every level thereafter adds an additional 5 XP to that (10 XP for level 2, 15 XP for level 3, etc). This makes it so that 200 'slots' always equal 1 character level. There is no maximum for anything, since someone would be sacrificing one thing in place of another (lots of skill points, hit points, saves, attack bonus, you name it = less of other things). As long as things have the correct cost, this should work out well.

'Slot' should really be changed - I assoziate with it characters built from legos or so. 'Token' and 'character points' are my best suggestions. U_K, does 'token' have the right connotation? If not, then 'character points' is better, although following situation could occur: "Do you have enough CPs?" "Yeah, even hundreds of GPs!" I know, I know... It is coincidentally the same name as in GURPS.

200 slots is nice value. I have a more rudimentary classless system for d20 Modern on my harddrive (only usable for that system) and it gives 28 points per level. But Four Colors to Fantasy, a great super powers supplement, gives 8 hero points per level and 28 isn't divisible through 8 - in opposite to 200, which results in 25 slots for one hero point. Only problem is, that IIRC BAB and saves still increase, although only after the poor columns.
I mentioned the possible minima and maxima to preserve the game balance without having to use the Golden Rule, but I'm not in the position to judge that. An idea: The change of the costs of whatever could be used to adjust easily your system to a low-magic world, for example. The higher the costs for an caster level gets, the rarer gets magic and defenses against magic - that could balance each other out.

I'm trying to find a nice balance between weapons and damaging magic.

I hope that doesn't impact the portability to EoM or to the core rules.

I'll be changing the way magic items work too, since the current system wouldn't work anymore (and I'm trying to keep away from money being a great part of balancing a character, since putting XP/slots into having a wealth allotment just wasn't going to work..since it would make little sense, especially with how my campaign world works).

Are you saying that the wealth distributation tables are incorrect for your system? Or for your campaign?

Anyway, I hope this gives you an idea of what I'm working on.

Yes, it does. Thank you for your effort! After comparing your design with my design goals I see that we are on the same wavelength - why else would you create a new magic system?


In the end, after the many modifications of the core rules, I feel I have then a beatle instead a bug - only the feeling and the cupholder are the same!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Upper_Krust!

Hi Rulemaster and Kavon mateys!

No, you go beyound three. The examples, I discovered: Page 5, Gnome spell-like abilities: 0.0125. The Revised Challenge Ratings contain ca. 20 examples - Bearded Devil 10.88575 and Erinyes 18.72125 are both the number 1.

Okay I was more thorough than I thought then!

Oh, and I discovered an error, I missed, at the item 9.15 Regeneration: "CR +0.1.5/point of Regeneration with a single vulnerability" - +0.1.5 instead 0.15.

Thanks for the feedback mate.

Also I forgot to ask: If the house rule "All skills are class skills" or its little brother "All ranks cost only one skill point" is in effect, how does it change the challenge ratings?

Probably by miniscule fractions if at all - personally I wouldn't worry about it.

LaTeX is a markup language similar to HTML, although more sophisticated and more or less specialised for writing books, especially for mathematics. The preamble is like the head of a HTML file and the code is simply the equivalent of COLOR=&FFFFFF or how that goes. LaTeX commands start usually with '\' like the mentioned \hrule. I didn't know that pagemaker produces so beautiful documents as LaTeX, so I'm surprised.

I have found page maker to be very easy to use.

And is the origin of the fancy font a secret? I'd really like to use it myself. This somehow archaic and still modern look...

Not really, I am trying to keep it fairly obscure until after the release - but if you email me I will send it to you.

I thought over this, too. But I decided to bring it up here because:
1. U_K is a nice guy - so surely he won't have anything against a little sharing of space.
2. This topic won't last long anymore - one or two month before it is outdated.
3. Only a few general posts about your system don't justify a new thread, because of ... the reasons you already stated in your other reply. ;-)

U_K, I'm not wrong with 1. and 2., am I?

No fire away guys. Have fun.

'Slot' should really be changed - I assoziate with it characters built from legos or so. 'Token' and 'character points' are my best suggestions. U_K, does 'token' have the right connotation? If not, then 'character points' is better, although following situation could occur: "Do you have enough CPs?" "Yeah, even hundreds of GPs!" I know, I know... It is coincidentally the same name as in GURPS.

Character points sounds like something.

 

[Kavon]

Hi Kavon!

Hey RuleMaster

I thought over this, too. But I decided to bring it up here because:

<cut>

Well, ok, seeing as U_K doesn't have a problem with it, I won't make a problem out of it either.

This is good - no more reincarnation problems (if I wouldn't use EoM ;-)).

Hehe
I think I have ideas which are quite similar to reincarnation for certain things in my world, so I guess I was working on it with that in mind too.

'Slot' should really be changed

Yes, I was thinking of something like 'Essence' or something, though I guess that's only really suitable for my world (see explanation below ), but I guess it doesn't really matter all that much in the end, so character points or something similar would probably be best.

Essence fits with me because of how my world works, I guess. Soul/Spirit Essence is what makes someone. You are born with the basic amount of Essence, which grows inside of you (getting more essence/levels). When you die, the Essence is released and disperses back into the 'collective' so to speak. In a way, these spirits/souls are the basic life forms where all life sprang from, and 'living' is their way of reproducing.

200 slots is nice value. I have a more rudimentary classless system for d20 Modern on my harddrive (only usable for that system) and it gives 28 points per level. But Four Colors to Fantasy, a great super powers supplement, gives 8 hero points per level and 28 isn't divisible through 8 - in opposite to 200, which results in 25 slots for one hero point. Only problem is, that IIRC BAB and saves still increase, although only after the poor columns.

It seems you have more experience with different systems than me, since I only had D&D 3rd edition to work with, and AD&D 2nd edition before that.
I'm glad you like the number I came up with, anyway.
I wanted something less than 1000, but I also had to make it small enough to fit all the ability costs in it (even though feat-like abilities still cost 40 'slots', there are other things which cost much less).

Anyway, the 200 is based off the '5XP times level' 'slot' cost formula, so if you compare things through U_K's thing, you should probably be able to make it work out ok enough (if I'm actually going to do anything with it besides use it for private use when I'm finished with it).

I mentioned the possible minima and maxima to preserve the game balance without having to use the Golden Rule, but I'm not in the position to judge that. An idea: The change of the costs of whatever could be used to adjust easily your system to a low-magic world, for example. The higher the costs for an caster level gets, the rarer gets magic and defenses against magic - that could balance each other out.

Well, I'm not too sure I want to put minima and maxima into the system, since that's something the player needs to figure out for him/herself, depending on their style of play.
But on that idea, I think I could figure out some costs to make things lower or higher magic. As I said, I'm still figuring out the costs which are suitable for my own world (and I'm thinking of going over some new things with that friend I mentioned earlier this weekend).

I hope that doesn't impact the portability to EoM or to the core rules.

Well, the magic system I'm working on isn't really portable at all, since it's a different approach. I could, however, make variant rules with which you can use the spell level system, or something like that.
Either way, the freeform character making thing should be viable for pretty much anything, as long as you have the correct costs for the systems you want to use.
As you'll understand, my main concern is making my own ideas work out properly first, though. So if I were ever so inclined to work out the costs of whatever other system I might want to insert for the thing, it would be after I'm finished with my own.

Are you saying that the wealth distributation tables are incorrect for your system? Or for your campaign?

Well, not exactly. I'm trying to make money have less impact on character balance. I don't really like restricting my players when they want to do things, and if they go into a new town, one of them has a tendency to look for the wealthy neighbourhoods, if you catch my drift. Sure, I could have them be chased around a bit for stealing things, but at the end of the day he still has that money, which he can use to buy things. I could let the things he buys get stolen, but that gets frustrating after so many times.
U_K put the wealth thing at 0.2 CR/level, IIRC, which would be equal to 40 'slots', or (Spirit/Soul) Essence. You'd be investing your essence in a meta-game thing which says how much worth your items can be in total. As I mentioned earlier, this doesn't sit well with me, so I figured I'd just take a different approach.

Yes, it does. Thank you for your effort! After comparing your design with my design goals I see that we are on the same wavelength - why else would you create a new magic system?

Well, I'm sure there are things that we would do differently, but I assume the basics of the system would work quite well. It's highly adaptable, I guess, so alterations should be easily made. Like, if you want to put minima and/or maxima into it, or use a different magic system, or what not, that shouldn't be too much of a problem, once it's finished at least...

In the end, after the many modifications of the core rules, I feel I have then a beatle instead a bug - only the feeling and the cupholder are the same!

Wooh, you lost me after 'rules' there


Hmm.. Have to go to bed earlier

*goes over text again briefly* I use "Well, " a bit much, don't I? o__o

 

[Campbell]

Greeting UK!

Recently, I've come across a small quandry with your CR system and ECLs for some monsters. In the campaign I'm in the process of planning right now, the Gith races play a major role, and I'd like to offer them as a racial option for my players. Part of the difficulty here comes with the spell-like abilities the Gith gain as their character levels increase.

Some Thoughts I've Had:

Possible Solution 1: Divide Githyanki up into Base CR adjustment and then divide additional benefits over 20 levels for a CR/Character Level adjustment.

Possible Solution 2: Simply adjust CR for spell-like abilities when they are gained.

If anyone has any thoughts on these delayed racial benefits I'd appreciate any feedback you might offer.

Side Question: I've thought about basing experience gained on actual CR. I'm hoping that doing so would remedy the ECL Races/Core Races glitche we've seen in our campaigns. Do you have any thoughts on this approach?

 

[Campbell]

Greeting UK!

Recently, I've come across a small quandry with your CR system and ECLs for some monsters. In the campaign I'm in the process of planning right now, the Gith races play a major role, and I'd like to offer them as a racial option for my players. Part of the difficulty here comes with the spell-like abilities the Gith gain as their character levels increase.

Some Thoughts I've Had:

Possible Solution 1: Divide Githyanki up into Base CR adjustment and then divide additional benefits over 20 levels for a CR/Character Level adjustment.

Possible Solution 2: Simply adjust CR for spell-like abilities when they are gained.

If anyone has any thoughts on these delayed racial benefits I'd appreciate any feedback you might offer.

Side Question: I've thought about basing experience gained on actual CR. I'm hoping that doing so would remedy the ECL Races/Core Races glitche we've seen in our campaigns. Do you have any thoughts on this approach?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Greeting UK!

Recently, I've come across a small quandry with your CR system and ECLs for some monsters. In the campaign I'm in the process of planning right now, the Gith races play a major role, and I'd like to offer them as a racial option for my players. Part of the difficulty here comes with the spell-like abilities the Gith gain as their character levels increase.

Some Thoughts I've Had:

Possible Solution 1: Divide Githyanki up into Base CR adjustment and then divide additional benefits over 20 levels for a CR/Character Level adjustment.

Possible Solution 2: Simply adjust CR for spell-like abilities when they are gained.

If anyone has any thoughts on these delayed racial benefits I'd appreciate any feedback you might offer.

Side Question: I've thought about basing experience gained on actual CR. I'm hoping that doing so would remedy the ECL Races/Core Races glitche we've seen in our campaigns. Do you have any thoughts on this approach?

Campbell,

My small contribution to UK's system was to allow exactly that.

If you go with approach #2, you calculate the party EL based on total party CR-- character levels plus any increased CR from special abilities. Award total XP based on this adjusted party EL and individual XP based on character level (not total CR) and it will all even out perfectly-- 13.33333 encounters per character level will still be required.

Put a stake through the heart of ECL and LA forever.

The one caveat I would recommend, unless you want to recalculate CR for the Golden Rule all the time, is never add more bonus CR abilities to a character than twice his HD.


Wulf