Value of BAB and Spell Casting

[Stormborn]

In the never ending to find that d20 variant that is "just right" for my group I have been considering the realtive values of various aspects of 1st level characters and have realized that in both DnD and d20 Modern core rules the various classes aren't perfectly balanced, but are pretty close. My method was to assign point values to various things like Skills, BAB, Saves, Spell Casting, etc.

I think I have come up with a workable system, not perfect nor even close enough to show anyone yet but workable enough for a start, in which players could basically design a class. (I don't want to wind up discussing the merits of this, just saying what my current "brain games" project is.) Alternatively this could be a method of designing classes.

My main concern is BAB v. Spellcasting. Its obvious that in 3.x Arcane casting trumps Divine, so that classes with good arcane spell casting get the worst BAB while classes with good divine casting get an average BAB. Fractional adjustments work both ways, so you wind up with a Bard who is an average BAB but also and average spellcasting progression. The best BAB seems balanced against either no arcane spells or poor divine spells (like the Paladin and Ranger.)

Now, that means in terms of value for a class Good BAB (+1 at 1st level - +20 at 20th level) is roughly equal in value to good Arcane Casting Ability (as a Wizard), agree or disagree? Yeah, i know other stuff becomes a factor (turn unded, smite, feats, etc) but these 2 things seem to be the heart of most classes and I am trying to figure out how they stack up.

Has anyone tried this before? I seem to vaguely recall seeing something like it, but not where.

 

[Jdvn1]

Now, that means in terms of value for a class Good BAB (+1 at 1st level - +20 at 20th level) is roughly equal in value to good Arcane Casting Ability (as a Wizard), agree or disagree?

Diagree. Compare the Fighter with the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer gets a familiar and spellcasting. Fighter gets BAB, feats, and hp. You're saying the familiar is worth the same as a better hit die and 11 feats.

Or compare with the Wizard. You're saying 5 feats and a familiar is with worth the same as 11 feats and better hit die.

 

[Bront]

Yes, you're forgetting the extra feats, and better HD. And don't forget armor and weapon feats.

 

[Jdvn1]

Yes, you're forgetting the extra feats, and better HD. And don't forget armor and weapon feats.

... You who?

 

[Stormborn]

Diagree. Compare the Fighter with the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer gets a familiar and spellcasting. Fighter gets BAB, feats, and hp. You're saying the familiar is worth the same as a better hit die and 11 feats.

Or compare with the Wizard. You're saying 5 feats and a familiar is with worth the same as 11 feats and better hit die.

No, I'm not. I'm asking: Given that they have other things (like HD, skills, feats, class abilities, wepon and armor proff., etc...) are BAB and Spellcasting roughly comprable in the value that they have for a class? Obviously each class has a multitude of things that makes it worthwhile, BAB and spell casting are only two. An argument can be made that for classes like the Bard and Rogue, skill points and class features are the compensation for their BAB and spellcasting or lack there of. If we can, for the sake of argument, remove those other aspects for the moment, do we come down with Good BAB and Good Arcane Spellcasting having roughly equal value for a class?

To better explain: Let's just say for a second that the value of everything in a class is 100% (although some classes may be closer to 90% and some 110%, let's jsut assume an average). At least some % of that is going to be taken up with HD, Skills, Saves, Feats, and Class Abilities. So if we were to measure what remains, would the % of value given to BAB for a Fighter be roughly equal to the value of spellcasting for a Sorcerer (to use Jdvn1's example)? I think so. Its just how rough is "roughly"?

 

[JimAde]

I think they are trying to address the question. The simplest case is Sorcerer and Fighter.

Sorcerer: Good arcane casting. Lousy everything else.

Fighter: Good BAB, plus better hit die, scads of feats and even some bonus feats (armor and weapon proficiencies).

So it seems the designers don't feel that BAB and arcane spellcasting are of similar value. Since they gave the fighter way more than that, they must think that arcane casting is worth far more than BAB.

Right?

 

[pmlyon]

I agree. Imagine, for example, a 20th level fighter. Now swap out his +20 BAB with the ability to cast 9th level spells instead. He would be a far more powerful character.

I think they are trying to address the question. The simplest case is Sorcerer and Fighter.

Sorcerer: Good arcane casting. Lousy everything else.

Fighter: Good BAB, plus better hit die, scads of feats and even some bonus feats (armor and weapon proficiencies).

So it seems the designers don't feel that BAB and arcane spellcasting are of similar value. Since they gave the fighter way more than that, they must think that arcane casting is worth far more than BAB.

Right?

 

[Thanee]

Arcane spellcasting as a sorcerer is worth like 90% in your comparison.

Full BAB maybe 30%.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jdvn1]

No, I'm not. I'm asking: Given that they have other things (like HD, skills, feats, class abilities, wepon and armor proff., etc...) are BAB and Spellcasting roughly comprable in the value that they have for a class? Obviously each class has a multitude of things that makes it worthwhile, BAB and spell casting are only two. An argument can be made that for classes like the Bard and Rogue, skill points and class features are the compensation for their BAB and spellcasting or lack there of. If we can, for the sake of argument, remove those other aspects for the moment, do we come down with Good BAB and Good Arcane Spellcasting having roughly equal value for a class?

To better explain: Let's just say for a second that the value of everything in a class is 100% (although some classes may be closer to 90% and some 110%, let's jsut assume an average). At least some % of that is going to be taken up with HD, Skills, Saves, Feats, and Class Abilities. So if we were to measure what remains, would the % of value given to BAB for a Fighter be roughly equal to the value of spellcasting for a Sorcerer (to use Jdvn1's example)? I think so. Its just how rough is "roughly"?

As has been mentioned, I am comparing the two. I'm proving they're not equal by contradiction. Kind of.

The idea is that, assuming the two classes are equal, and assuming BAB is worth the same as full spellcasting, then it'd lead to the conclusion that 11 feats, weapon/armor profs, and a better HD is worth the same as a familiar. Since we can all agree that a familiar is not worth the same as all of that, then a good BAB and good spellcasting are not equal.

 

[Bront]

... You who?

Not you, the other you