Vampire energy drain and LA question

[Mulkhoran]

Well, it can drain with a slam, since vampires gain a Slam attack (as a natural attack).

A monk doesn't use a Slam, though, he uses an unarmed strike. They're quite different, even though from a cinematic point of view they both look like a punch.

-Hyp.

Where do you get that unarmed strikes are not natural weapons? The monk description explicitly states that the monk's unarmed strikes are natural weapons, and the vampire template says they can use energy drain with natural weapons.

 

[drowdude]

From the template description, lets say this 3 times with cheer!

(or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess)

(or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess)

(or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess)




A monk's unarmed strike is most definitely a natural attack.

 

[glass]

Notice that even apart from the "once per round" limitation, it only works with natural weapons, not unarmed strikes...

Well, I have never known Hyp to be wrong before, but in this case I am afraid I agree Drowdude et al: A monks unarmed strike does count as a natural weapon.

glass.

 

[Darklone]

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Well... literally speaking, Hyp is right IMHO. A monks unarmed strike does not count as a natural weapon in the regard of Energy Drain. At least since I don't see E-drain as a spell or effect that enhances or improves natural weapons or weapons.

 

[Artoomis]

Natural Weapon:

A creature's body part that deals damage in combat. Natural weapons include teeth, claws, horns, tails and other appendages.

Unarmed Strike:

A successful blow, typically dealing non-lethal damage, from a character attackign without weapons...

Hmmm.... by those glossary defintions, an unarmed strike is made with natural weapons, right?

 

[Darklone]

Nope. Attacking with an unarmed strike causes AoOs and you don't threaten... attacking with natural weapons does not cause AoOs... etc.

 

[Scion]

Dealing extra negative energy damage with a strike sounds like just as much of an 'improvement' to the natural attack as having a flaming fist or some other thing that does extra damage.

After all, the attack had more of an effect, sounds like an improvement

 

[Artoomis]

Nope. Attacking with an unarmed strike causes AoOs and you don't threaten... attacking with natural weapons does not cause AoOs... etc.

Yeah, well, sometimes.

"Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. "

So sometimes a fist counts a "natural weapon" and, perhaps, sometimes it does not, for example, for threatening, although a monk's unarmed attack does indeed threaten, as does a touch attack for a spell.

So there you have it. Clear as mud.

I think that a vampire can certainly deliver it's one-per-round level drain with a fist if it's a monk.

 

[Darklone]

I don't say I wouldn't use it in that way... but Magic Fang is clearly supported by the monks unarmed strike definition, Energy drain is not

Even if it's an "improvement", Scion

 

[Scion]

hey, right from the quote

'effects that enhance natural weapons'
'effets that improve natural weapons'

one of those should apply..lol.. possibly both.

Still though, to each their own of course.. but since it is only triggers once per round anyway I dont see much of a problem..

but then, in my campaign negative levels never result in actual level loss.. so maybe I am free to interpret a bit looser