Vampire energy drain and LA question

[Artoomis]

I don't say I wouldn't use it in that way... but Magic Fang is clearly supported by the monks unarmed strike definition, Energy drain is not

Even if it's an "improvement", Scion

I'd say Energy Drain can be done with any natural weapon that delivers real damage. That works nicely, I think, and would include a monk's fist (or whatever body part was actually used to deliver the blow).

 

[Scion]

of course, I would allow a monk fire elemental to do extra damage as well.

SRD:
Burn (Ex): A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body.

 

[Mulkhoran]

Ok, um............

I'm not making this up.

The monk entry in the 3.5 PHB says that the monk's hands count as natural weapons for purposes of spells and effects that affect natural weapons. It mentions Magic Fang and other spells, as a matter of fact.

The vampire template entry in the MM says, under Energy Drain, that the vampire can use energy drain with it's slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess)

Sorry, it just seems like there's some confusion over these points. Of course, this might vary from campaign to campaign, but that's how the rules are currently written.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Artoomis]

Ok, um............

I'm not making this up.

The monk entry in the 3.5 PHB says that the monk's hands count as natural weapons for purposes of spells and effects that affect natural weapons. It mentions Magic Fang and other spells, as a matter of fact.

The vampire template entry in the MM says, under Energy Drain, that the vampire can use energy drain with it's slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess)

Sorry, it just seems like there's some confusion over these points. Of course, this might vary from campaign to campaign, but that's how the rules are currently written.

Thanks for listening.

While I agree with your conclusion, it's also true that "count as..." is not the same as "are..."

Nonetheless, fists are natural weapons by some defintions and not by others, sometimes. It's a real shame that rules can't just be rules.

 

[Darklone]

Hehehehehe... so far for my puny attempts to save Hypersmurfs infallibility.

Guess he has to do it by himself ... as usual.

 

[Hypersmurf]

From the Monster Manual:
Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

I presume you don't want to argue that your monk can only attack once in a round with his unarmed strike?

From the FAQ update today:
It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural
weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk
weapon such as a sai or a kama. However, natural weaponry
isn’t as handy as manufactured weaponry. You never get extra
attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry,
and the monk’s flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks
from your base attack bonus. It’s worth noting here that a
vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its
slam attack and cannot drain energy.

The monk's fists count as natural weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons.

The energy drain is not a spell or effect that enhances or improves a natural weapon; it is something that occurs when a strike with a natural weapon is made.

A vampire monk can slam once and deal 1d6 damage plus energy drain. Or he can flurry and use three unarmed strikes that deal 1d8 damage with no energy drain. Or he can not flurry, and use two unarmed strikes that deal 1d8 damage with no energy drain, plus a slam as a secondary natural weapon at -5 that deals 1d6 damage plus energy drain.

-Hyp.

 

[Scion]

the faq does have problems now and then either way

 

[Hypersmurf]

the faq does have problems now and then either way

That's why I opened with the Monster Manual quote.

-Hyp.

 

[lkj]

From the Monster Manual:
Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

I presume you don't want to argue that your monk can only attack once in a round with his unarmed strike?

From the FAQ update today:
It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural
weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk
weapon such as a sai or a kama. However, natural weaponry
isn’t as handy as manufactured weaponry. You never get extra
attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry,
and the monk’s flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks
from your base attack bonus. It’s worth noting here that a
vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its
slam attack and cannot drain energy.

The monk's fists count as natural weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons.

The energy drain is not a spell or effect that enhances or improves a natural weapon; it is something that occurs when a strike with a natural weapon is made.

A vampire monk can slam once and deal 1d6 damage plus energy drain. Or he can flurry and use three unarmed strikes that deal 1d8 damage with no energy drain. Or he can not flurry, and use two unarmed strikes that deal 1d8 damage with no energy drain, plus a slam as a secondary natural weapon at -5 that deals 1d6 damage plus energy drain.

-Hyp.

Just to add a little extra confusion. Did anyone notice that in the 3.5 Monster Manual that the Sample Elite Vampire has monk levels. It also clearly states in the Attack and Full attack that the monk's unarmed attack (natural or no) does do energy drain.
"Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +14/+14/+9 (1d10+5 plus energy drain)"

Yes, yes, the example could be wrong. Maybe they changed their minds. Maybe the designers don't agree with each other.
At any rate I found it amusing.

AD

PS: Incidentally, whatever the official rules, my vampire monks are doing an energy drain on one hit per round from their unarmed attacks. It just makes sense to me . . . in an evil DM sort of way . . .

 

[Darklone]

The monk's fists count as natural weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons.

The energy drain is not a spell or effect that enhances or improves a natural weapon; it is something that occurs when a strike with a natural weapon is made.

Hah, I said that, I said that!

Guess I need to spend a feat on "Hyps rules authority".