Vampire ?'s

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Be aware that in D20 Modern you don`t have great attack ratings and you can`t boost your Strength/Dex as good as in D&D - But Vampires usually have a very high Armor Class (natural Armor!) and so it might become difficult to confirm a threat. But on the other hand, if a Vampire hits, it causes Energy Drain, which is extremely deadly in a system without clerical Restoration spells.

So the special Critical rule in D20 Modern is just fair, I think...
In D&D, it will probably not work...

(oh, and the +2 CR is okay in D&D, at least in my experience .)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Mordane76]

With that light, I think it's an even better idea for d20 Modern -- I've only had the book for two days now, and I'm still assimilating the new information, so much so that I haven't sat down and considered how much "weaker" a modern character is compared to a D&D character, when you take away access to buffing spells and items, magical weapons, and the like. And I think the idea of Critical Hit insta-kill on vampires in D&D is an even worse idea now, for these exact reasons.

If your players have aforeknowledge of their adversary, as any good character should attempt to gather, or they even suspect the potential vampiric adversary, carrying a stake +1 isn't that hard or that expensive, especially considering the now unbreakable stake (barring targeted dispel) can be used over and over again for slaying the unliving hordes of blood-drinkers.

 

[kreynolds]

If your players have aforeknowledge of their adversary, as any good character should attempt to gather, or they even suspect the potential vampiric adversary, carrying a stake +1 isn't that hard or that expensive, especially considering the now unbreakable stake (barring targeted dispel) can be used over and over again for slaying the unliving hordes of blood-drinkers.

The only catch is that I've always felt that Vampires should be wickedly cunning. Their lairs should be some of the most heavily guarded and deviously trapped. They should have at least two separate "safe-houses" to fall back on should the primary haven be compromised. Also, a cunning vampire won't wait for the heros if they fail to kill it in the first fight. If it lives through one fight, and if it feels its existence is threatened, it should begin hunting them. It should use the same tactics as the PCs - i.e. finding them in their sleep. It should turn them against one another slowly over time.

I kinda see them like dragons, meaning if they aren't played properly, their just way too weak. If handled properly, vampires can provide a really great BBEG that doesn't need to be tied to some huge world shattering domination plot.

 

[Mordane76]

True. Nothing is saying that a vampire shouldn't be the undisputed lord of night; regal in presence, wise with the knowledges of ages, mighty in physical strength, and terrible in wrath. I know that, normally, when I use vampires as enemies, they come out like this. I just don't like the idea in a D&D campaign of this potentially anti-climactic resolution, where a character gets lucky and gets the critical hit. I know that a DM can plan for this possibilty, and can try everything to avoid its occurrence, but it may invariably happen and throw a wrench in the story's works.

Also... Just from experience with my players, they have a tendency to kill first and ask questions later; subtle coercions and slower plot developments get run roughshod by players looking for the enemy and being ready to kill anyone with the hint of badnik. Maybe I should run a few solid hack-n-slash days to get this out of their systems...

 

[kreynolds]

I know that a DM can plan for this possibilty, and can try everything to avoid its occurrence, but it may invariably happen and throw a wrench in the story's works.

Also... Just from experience with my players, they have a tendency to kill first and ask questions later;...

I know exactly what you mean, but I can honestly tell you that the Vampire is not the only victim to these circumstances. In one of my games, there is a Knight of the Chalice. Against anything but demons, he's pretty much toast because the PrC is so very focused on doing one thing. However, when pitted against demons, he just about walks right through them. Even if I roleplay a Balor brilliantly, one that takes great pains and makes extraordinary efforts to keep the battle on his own turf, that damned KotC is a tough man to take down. When he's at full combat readiness and successfully makes but a single strike against a demon, the guy throws about ten dice on the table. Ten! Per hit!! Ugh.

Aside from "The Mosted Hated Ranger Of All Time", I've never had as much trouble as with the KotC. When dealing with this paladin, everthing comes down to tactics, a battle of wits, and believe me, the battlefield isn't restricted to actual combat. I think that's the key to Vampires as well. They are great in combat, except for the very real risk of being staked, but because of this vulnerability, they should take great pains to protect themselves. When done so properly, they can make a very formidable enemy.

I honestly think that Vampires can be portrayed one of two ways; either defensively or offensively. When portrayed defensively, they do everything they can to avoid confronting the players. Essentially, they just run and hide. When portrayed offensively, they take the battle to the players on their own turf.

That's the trouble with intelligent monsters; they're only as intelligent as the person portraying them, and I'll be the first to admit that I am certainly not an individual that has the brains nor capability of taking over the world.

...subtle coercions and slower plot developments get run roughshod by players looking for the enemy and being ready to kill anyone with the hint of badnik.

This is very true. From my own experience, this can be the biggest monkey-wrench of them all. With these types of players or this style of game, Vampires don't really make a very good foe, primarily because they are cerebral in nature. With players or a game like this, a boat-load of ogres or stupid giants is probably more appropriate.

Maybe I should run a few solid hack-n-slash days to get this out of their systems...

That just might do the trick. Let me know if it works and I might try that myself.

 

[dkilgo]

If a vampire is so intelligent and wise then wouldn't he just have someone else do the party in? I mean wouldn't he just coerce some people of appropriate level to deal with those medling kids?
Old vampires don't become old without some for thought and backing.

I would play a vampire combat encounter in such a way that the vampire would not even have to get in to the thick of things until all else was lost. And, before that he/she would probably run for his un-life to safety to only return with more lackies to do his dirty work. A vampiric encounter is not necessarily going to against the vampire himself/herself. It will definitly be a battle of wits.

The Character's vs. the Vampire's

 

[Mordane76]

I agree, dkilgo... Older, more experienced vampires aren't going toe-to-toe with the PCs; they didn't get to be old and experienced by making such amateurish mistakes as taking on a party of clerics, monks, rangers, wilders (arcanist), and rogues (what I have right now). They send their minions, they hurt the PCs in places other than their HP, and they goad the PCs into amateur mistakes, like attacking the vampire in an arena of his choosing under the cover of darkness...


I guess part of my discomfort with using the instakill mechanic comes from my early RP days; my first major RP was Vampire: the Dark Ages, so I'm kinda wont to rule stakes as incapacitating as opposed to killing.

 

[kreynolds]

Older, more experienced vampires aren't going toe-to-toe with the PCs

I couldn't agree more.

 

[med stud]

The best way for a vampire to take out human/halfling/half orc enemies is to outlive them. Take a "temporary" setback of 50 years in your plans, and the bold adventurers are now old men/ women.

Or kill them by using offensive means; spy on them, and when they are alone for some reason, kill them in their sleep (transforming into a rat will let you in everywhere, and when mr Fighter is sleeping, he is in for a CDG from hell (as the vampire can bring a greatsword into his shape shift). To allow the opponents to take the fight to your lair is stupid, as they are prepared to fight and ready for attacks, something that makes it risky to defend even though you have some tactic advantages there.

 

[kreynolds]

...when they are alone for some reason, kill them in their sleep...

That was my thoughts up above as well.