Vampires that aren't crap!

[Sylrae]

Let me know what you guys think of them? I think they're a big improvement, but the LAs might need some slight adjusting. I estimated it and used an ECL calculator.

The power level for these vampires is lower than the power level of the MM vampire, but I like the these better. It's also more gradual and usable for players.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Undead type;
Healing magic shouldnt work on undead.

In all editions (prior to 4th) positive energy is bad for undead.

Adding Cha to HD that remove main undead weakness (no con score).

So New Undead type itself is LA worthy (though only 1 point).
LA should be lower than higher the lv the party.

1/2 Vamp template:
LA +2 I'd peg it.
If Level 11 or higher than just LA +1.

Vampire Spawn:
Undead but vulnerable to Crits, CalledShots (don't exist in rules), and Coup de Gras.
I like it but LA +2 as well (though low LA +2).
If Level 11 or higher than just LA +2.

The weaknesses are very good as they fit stories.
Why no turn resistance even 1 point?

What happens if a Vampire spawn has 0 Cha from Blood Hunger is he comatose since he can't heal it magically and since can't move not physically.

How does one Impale a vampire? Called Shot?

Vampire:
Vampires have less Dex and Wis than Vampire Spawn?
LA should be +3 (low LA +3). If Level 11 or higher than just LA +2.
Should list they have same weaknesses as Vampire Spawn...it reads as they have no weaknesses other than Blood Hunger.

Greater Vamps:
LA +3 (high LA +3). If Level 11 or higher than just LA +3.

Master Vamps:
LA +4 to +5 (what Vampires should have been in 3.5 monster manual).
If Level 11 or higher than just LA +4.

 

[Sylrae]

Undead type;
Healing magic shouldnt work on undead.

In all editions (prior to 4th) positive energy is bad for undead.

That's what I thought too. I didnt change that part, that's right out of my 3.5 mm under undead type.

Adding Cha to HD that remove main undead weakness (no con score).

They're no longer getting their d12s though. Mindless undead like skeles and zombies get the d12 and no CHA bonus, intelligent undead get the CHA mod but no HD increase.

So New Undead type itself is LA worthy (though only 1 point).

The old undead type was deemed LA worthy for 1 point. They actually have a template for it. "crypt spawn". it was in magic of faerun. it gives you the undead type, some really small extra benefit for a +1 LA.

Crypt spawn: Undead Type, Natural Armor = HD/4, +4 Intimidate, +2 Turn resist, CR +1 (Estimated LA +1 or +2 (book doesnt list an LA)

LA should be lower than higher the lv the party.

Agreed. Higher levels are more powerful than lower levels.

1/2 Vamp template:
LA +2 I'd peg it.
If Level 11 or higher than just LA +1.

They get alot of weaknesses though. You sure the weaknesses don't cancel some of that out? I'd say they get maybe +2LA worth of benefits if you gave them no weaknesses.

One thing I should address. The vampire templates after Vampire Spawn take the vampire template prior to it as the base creature. It says that in the document, but it would be an easy thing to miss.
so:
Vampire Spawn = Vampire Spawn
Vampire = Vampire Spawn + Vampire
Greater Vampire = Vampire spawn + Vampire + Greater Vampire
Master Vampire = Vampire Spawn + Vampire + Greater Vampire + Master Vampire

You're adding the LAs as you go as well.

Vampire Spawn:
Undead but vulnerable to Crits, CalledShots (don't exist in rules), and Coup de Gras.
I like it but LA +2 as well (though low LA +2).
If Level 11 or higher than just LA +2.

The weaknesses are very good as they fit stories.
Why no turn resistance even 1 point?

Hmm. Well, they're the weakest vampire offspring. It didnt seem fitting to give them the Turn resist. Plus, Turn resist helps them against all of their weaknesses in terms of damage.
We kept Called shots. They're totally DM Adjudicated in terms of penalties for aiming at specific locations. They aren't used all the time, but they come up occasionally.
LA +2? He gets all those weaknesses, and very few bonuses comparatively. Feeding isn't really a bonus, for example, he has to pin you first, and then drain the CON. It's not a viable thing to do in mid combat. He doesn't get a free improved unarmed attack either, so he'll be provoking attacks of opportunity if he tries.

What happens if a Vampire spawn has 0 Cha from Blood Hunger is he comatose since he can't heal it magically and since can't move not physically.

Oh sorry. He's sortof comatose. He can't move or anything unless someone feeds him blood. Fully aware though.Just unable to move his eyes.

How does one Impale a vampire? Called Shot?

Called Shot, or Coup de Gras, or a critical that the DM says did enough damage to be a staking. You'll notice they mention killing a vampire by these in the MM and yet the vampire is actually immune to those effects in the MM. lol. As for the damage, I'd say if you do more than 60% the vampire's HP on a crit he's been staked. (We dont use massive damage rules or most auto-kills, but if you crit you can roll again, and if you crit again you continue endlessly until you stop critting.)

Vampire:
Vampires have less Dex and Wis than Vampire Spawn?
LA should be +3 (low LA +3). If Level 11 or higher than just LA +2.
Should list they have same weaknesses as Vampire Spawn...it reads as they have no weaknesses other than Blood Hunger.

If you look again you'll see the vampire template is added on TOP of Vampire spawn. these are the additional traits.
So the +1LA would make it a total +2

Greater Vamps:
LA +3 (high LA +3). If Level 11 or higher than just LA +3.

an LA +2 would make it a total LA +4

Master Vamps:
LA +4 to +5 (what Vampires should have been in 3.5 monster manual).
If Level 11 or higher than just LA +4.

and this would give a Total LA +6.

So, with the slight explanation, would you take another look at it?

 

[Sylrae]

I plugged in the Abilities of these vampire templates using an ECL Calculator. They're shockingly weak compared to where I initially pegged them.

The Vampire Spawn Template (Which I Pegged at a +1 LA) actually came out to be slightly worse than a -1LA. I'll be making these Vampires a bit tougher so that the Vampire spawn works out to at least a 0. a 0 LA template doesnt sound like a bad Idea for once. lol.

They Need to be toughened up. Clearly. I'll post the revised ones once they're fixed, along with the clarifications of things i forgot to write in initially.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

You might consider picking up Lords of the Night: Vampires by Bottled Imp. A pdf copy can be easily bought here:
The Lords of the Night: Vampires - Bottled Imp Games | RPGNow.com

Physical copies appear to be around $20 U.S.

And here's a review of it:
RPGnet : Review of The Lords of the Night: Vampires

Not saying you shouldn't do your own thing, just pointing out that you might be reinventing the wheel unnecessarily. With the horde of 3.x products out there, depending on what you're after it might be easier to start from an already established base and modify from there rather than trying to create an entirely new thing.

The ECL calculators... I'd be reeeeeealllly careful there. Unless you're using Upper_Krust's CR system and the calculator is using those numbers. U_K's system seems pretty reasonable and I've found the SRD critters tend to match up better to actual performance rather than the somewhat higgledy-piggledy approach WotC CR stuff tends to take.

For example, the d20 SRD online says the CR for a vampire template is the base creature's CR +2.

U_K's system pegs the template as being worth +7.075 CR.

 

[Sylrae]

It's not using UK's system, it's using Monte Cook's system. I'm going to use UK's system to revise the templates.

I bought 2 other d20 vampire books, and I've been disappointed by both of them. Unfortunately, I'm not going to buy another one without seeing the mechanics for the vampires first. The fluff may be wonderful, but it's the mechanics that I've been disappointed by again and again. I want a Low ECL Vampire, like ECL +1 or so, which scales to a higher ECL vampire, and has weaknesses closer to what I mentioned above.

If there was a paper copy of that vamp book in front of me to look at maybe id get it, or if you happen to have it and could show me the vamp stats, the rest of the book might be worth getting.

The downside about so many d20 books, is that unless you get to see them, you have no idea if theyll be useful to you or just a waste of 10$.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

It's not using UK's system, it's using Monte Cook's system. I'm going to use UK's system to revise the templates.

I've got no idea what "Monte Cook's system" is. Do you mean the default CR system in 3.x or some other thing entirely?

As for mixing CR systems... I really don't recommend it. If you're going to use U_K's system to revise templates, you should really use it to evaluate everything.

For example, if you go with WotC's default CR system, A Huge Air or Fire Elemental is a CR7 critter. In theory, about on par with a U_K Revised CR of a Vampire.

Of course, U_K's system pegs the same elementals as being CR 15.

The downside about so many d20 books, is that unless you get to see them, you have no idea if theyll be useful to you or just a waste of 10$.

Well.... sorta. I mean, you can find reviews for an awful lot of d20 stuff. It sounds like you've got some pretty specific ideas though, so I don't think I've got anything else to really contribute.

 

[Sylrae]

Hey, Yeah, Monte Cook's system is basically a way to calculate CR/LA that's like the default system. It doesnt have all the specific powers spelled out, it Has power categories with values assigned to them, and you have to put down how many abilities are in each category. They have examples of things under each category.

The system is better than no system, though less specific than Upper Krust's, and Less Precise about things. I didnt know about UK's system until just the other day, and there doesnt seem to be an actual calculator based on it.

When I said I'd use UK's system to revise them, I meant I'm going to use UK's system to reevaluae them, and then I'm going to use it to adjust the power levels to acceptable levels. Then I'll repost it, and see if people like it.

I noticed that using no calculator, people were saying the Vampire Spawn should have like a +2LA, and using even the rough calculator, it's actually a -LA. A friend of mine plugged it into UK and got a Bigger -LA. lol.

So they need to be made more powerful, but I'm not just going to guess at how much, I'll use the rating system, and then make them better until they reach the CR they should be.

As for my specific Ideas, I've tried a bunch of vampires out. A couple from a Dragon Mag, 2 or 3 third party ones, including Green Ronin's Races of Renown: Fang and Fury (which) I own, and one or two I've seen owned by a friend of mine. Then I saw a few done online. Kerrick has a pretty cool Ebook about vampires. They're largely based on the vampires in Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter (Amazing seriesof like 16 novels, by the way). The vampires are quite cool, but theyre a bit more powerful than I'm going for, and the rules for them were a bit less simple than what I was aiming for as well, IIRC. I'd put it up here but I dont know if he would want me to. Based on the stance he took with Project Phoenix he probably wouldnt mind, but I'm gonna wait until I get his OK first.

Largely, they have really simplified weaknesses, like the one in the monster manual (Sunlight doesn't do damage, you just die outright), many of them don't actually *need* blood, they just drink it because theyre evil, and They tend to have huge level adjusts that put them outside the reach of player characters.

I'm looking for something that takes all the weaknesses up front, and then gradually builds in power through age categories. Kindof like how Ravenloft 3e does it, except not starting from the Monster Manual Vampire, which has an LA too high, inappropriate weaknesses for a player character, and powers that aren't all that useful, largely, as mentioned above.

I'm totally open to new optional weaknesses, such as garlic, and possibly stake through the heart as true death instead of paralysis (though then a wooden requirement would likely be added for the weapon). And I can add additional powers as well. If people want them, I'll add them to the document, and put them as variant vampires, and list the CR including changes.

I also don't mind throwing together the changes it would take to make them compatible with RAW 3.5 instead of having them be Pathfinder based. (If people actually want that)

 

[Megahedron]

You can totally impale a vampire. It blatantly says it in the MM. I would guess that if, for some reason, you are in a situation where you can coup de grace it. It would still be hard because they're immune to things that would put them in that situation.

 

[Megahedron]

I think it was a good try, but I don't know. I like the idea of progression for older vampires, kind of like elementals, but I think this takes away from the difficulty of having to fight a vampire.