D&D 4E Vancian Magic 4e

[Zaran]

I want mules back!

 

[RangerWickett]

The solution, I think, is to allow versatility of choices at character creation, but not complete versatility in a given adventuring day. So I should be able to make a wizard who can polymorph the party into barnyard animals, but only if I pick that as one of my powers.

If Bob the Evoker decides to pick the usual suite of boom spells, he shouldn't be able to just up and decide "today I'm going to cast Wickett's Farmville Transmogrification."

So have a bajillion spells, but keep roughly the same number of choices as now. Maybe have an option for 'minor utility spells,' which you can acquire with a feat, or get several at a time in place of a normal attack power. Conjuring a 10-ft. bridge, mind-controlling sheep, and shrinking yourself to 1/12 normal size are fun options, but not worth trading one-for-one with, say, Katrina's Cometary Cataclysm.

And as long as attack spells deal the appropriate damage for their level, it should be balanced. Polymorph won't be as abusive now, I'm sure. And defensive magic scales better. In 4e, a +2 bonus to AC is splendid at any level.

What I would love to see is a Mage with sub-class options that can go more striker, leader, defender, or controller. Instead of being a staff mage, maybe you could pick:

Abjurer - Spells focus on pure defense bonuses, resistances, brief immunities, and temporary hit points. You might have an 'Abjurer Apprentice' ability that says that whenever you cast an Abjuration spell, one ally within 5 squares gets 5 temporary hitpoints (scales by tier).

Shieldmage - Spells focus on creating walls and defenses on the battlefield, countering and reflecting spells. The 'Shieldmage Apprentice' ability might let you create an invulnerable Wall 3 within 5 squares as a minor action.



I dunno. That's just some random thoughts. Spellcasters are cool.

 

[jimmifett]

Katrina's Cometary Cataclysm.

I thought that was Sephiroths Cometary Cataclysm...

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The solution, I think, is to allow versatility of choices at character creation, but not complete versatility in a given adventuring day. So I should be able to make a wizard who can polymorph the party into barnyard animals, but only if I pick that as one of my powers.

So what's the tradeoff for the versatility? If magic gets to do anything, it should do it poorly, slowly, and with a cost. If a particular mage class scope is limited, then they should get to be on par with the non-casters, but I hardly expect it, given the goal is to recreate 3rd editions supermen with rotating power selection.
Even for a limited scope caster, I still think they should be worse in several ways, to make up for the fact that magic gets to do things that mundane cant do. There isnt a heal DC to revive the dead. There isnt an athletics DC to fly. There isnt an insight DC to read minds. Magic was always too easy and consequence free in D&D.

So have a bajillion spells, but keep roughly the same number of choices as now. Maybe have an option for 'minor utility spells,' which you can acquire with a feat, or get several at a time in place of a normal attack power. Conjuring a 10-ft. bridge, mind-controlling sheep, and shrinking yourself to 1/12 normal size are fun options, but not worth trading one-for-one with, say, Katrina's Cometary Cataclysm.

Thats why we have rituals. If you want a 10 foot bridge in a can, it needs to be worse in some ways than actually making the bridge through mundane means. If your ritual produces a bridge faster than chopping down a tree, it needs to cost more. The swiss army knife doesnt get to be a better tool at a particular job than the actual tool you want.

Unfortunately editions 1-3 spoiled casters into thinking they need to have it all, now and for free. Which is why I fully expect this to just be a gimme to casters. After all, fairness doesnt sell.

 

[Morrus]

given the goal is to recreate 3rd editions supermen with rotating power selection.

Is that the goal? I don't recall saying that. What makes you think we don't intend a tradeoff for the versatility?

The goal is to accomplish the older "feel" while remaining balanced with 4E. Heck, maybe we won't manage it, but it interests me so I see no reason not to give it a try. It'll be fun finding out, whatever happens.

But let's back off on the sarcasm and hostility, eh? If you're not interested, that's fine, but there's no reason to attack someone for wanting to give it a shot.

 

[Incenjucar]

Give them twice the encounter abilities, limit them to only using 4 encounter powers per encounter, make these former encounter powers to daily-use only, make their at-wills encounter-only abilities, and give them all crossbows and darts.

 

[LostSoul]

Vancian, eh?

Turjan of Miir:

Turjan fuond a musty portfolio, turned the heavy pages to the spell the Sage had showed him, the Call to the Violent Cloud. He stared down at the characters and they burned with an urgent power, pressing off the page as if frantic to leave the dark solitude of the book.

Turjan closed the book, forcing the spell back into oblivion. He robed himself with a short blue cape, tucked a blade into his belt, fitted the amulet holding Laccodel's Rune to his wrist. Then he sat down and from a journal chose the spells he would take with him. What dangers he might meet he could not know, so he selected three spells of general application: the Excellent Prismatic Spray, Phandaal's Mantle of Stealth, and the Spell of the Slow Hour.​

Why is Turjan doing this? So he can speak to Pandelume:

"This is my mission, Pandelume," he said. "For some time I have been striving to create humanity in my vats. Yet always I fail, from ignorance of the agent that binds and orders the patterns. This master-matrix must be known to you; therefore I come to you for guidance."​

And of course Pandelume has "cloning vats":

Pandelume's voice was amused. "I, too," he replied, "have vats where I mold life into varied forms. This girl T'sais I created, but I wrought carelessly, with a flaw in the synthesis. So she climbed from the vat with a warp in her brain, in this manner: what we hold to be beautiful seems to her loathsome and ugly, and what we find ugly is to her intolerably vile, in a degree that you and I cannot understand. She finds the world a bitter place, people with shapes of direst malevolence."​

Pandelume requests a service, which leads to a magical conflict:

"With ready death on my lips," spoke Turjan. "Turn your back, Kandive, or I speak a spell and run you through with my sword."

Kandive made as to obey, but instead shouted the syllables bringing the Omnipotent Sphere about him.

"Now I call my guards, Turjan," announced Kandive contemptuously, "and you shall be cast to ithe Deodands in the tank."

Kandive did not know the engraved band Turjan wore on his wrist, a most powerful rune, maintaining a field solvent of all magic. Still guarding his vision against the amulet, Turjan stepped through the Sphere. Kandive's great blue eyes bulged.

"Call the guards," said Turjan. "They will find your body riddled by lines of fire."

"Your body, Turjan!" cried the prince, babbling the spell. Instantly the blazing wires of the Excellent Prismatic Spray lashed from all directions at Turjan. Kandive watched the furious rain with a wolfish grin, but his expression changed quickly to consternation. A finger's breath from Turjan's skin the fire-darts dissolved into a thousand gray puffs of smoke."​

 

[wrptd-dryv]

Thought of a possible vanic magic user. They normally have 2 spells per power in their book, new option one normal level spell, and meny lower level ie (encounter in a daily slot, or an at will in a encounter slot) w/ the encounters or at wills being any spell of the same power source. Additionally if this works and isn't overpowered it can be addapted for all power sources.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Is that the goal? I don't recall saying that. What makes you think we don't intend a tradeoff for the versatility?

Trading off for versatility is necessary, but it rarely works out well. The 'versatile' class just gets swingier, and it doesn't take much for a powergamer to make sure the swing is too often in his favor.

The goal is to accomplish the older "feel" while remaining balanced with 4E. Heck, maybe we won't manage it, but it interests me so I see no reason not to give it a try. It'll be fun finding out, whatever happens.

I found a lot of the older magic-user feel playing a 4e wizard. I played him as being obsessive about finding rituals, chose classic spells as much as possible, and tried to emphasize that the utlities and dailies were ones he 'had memorized.' It was kinda fun, entertaining through levels 1-11, actually (and I wish it had continued, as I had picked up some rituals that I expected to get a lot of use out of), and required no house-ruling, at all.

The only part of the past 'feel' that you can't wring out of 4e is the overpoweredness at higher level. I can't say I miss it.

You can even get a bit of the overplanned, scry/buff/teleport feel (not that actual tactic). Alpha Strikes in 4e aren't like 3.x novas, but they are effective and a wizard's dailies can be a big part of them.

 

[Matt James]

My version of Vancian magic in 4e is simple and requires no detailed document to describe. I just allow my Wizards to collect spells in a spellbook (Wizard powers). At the beginning of the day, they can memorize the requisite amount. This gives them the versatility they want without giving them anything game-shattering. Its a very simple and easy fix for 4e.