Variant arcane spellcasting
- Thread starter Eternalknight
- Start date
Magus_Jerel
First Post
There are some Major problems I see here.
1. This makes wizards very much like sorcerers who can swap preparations
2. The idea of using mana as casting time = big trouble at higher levels. I would set the amount of "mana" a character can gather in a round as = caster level, but make "gathering mana" a standard action. This renders all combat spellcasting a "full round" deal - gather - then cast as "your action" - unless you used the likes of a quickened spell.
3. There seems to be no limit on how much "mana" a wizard can gather in a given day, which is probably a good thing. After all, a fighter can swing his sword a seemingly infinite number of times.
1. This makes wizards very much like sorcerers who can swap preparations
2. The idea of using mana as casting time = big trouble at higher levels. I would set the amount of "mana" a character can gather in a round as = caster level, but make "gathering mana" a standard action. This renders all combat spellcasting a "full round" deal - gather - then cast as "your action" - unless you used the likes of a quickened spell.
3. There seems to be no limit on how much "mana" a wizard can gather in a given day, which is probably a good thing. After all, a fighter can swing his sword a seemingly infinite number of times.
Steven McRownt
First Post
Well in all the alt. spellcasting system i ever read here, we reached the point that sorcerer and wizard do the same work, and we don't need them both. If we think of a spontaneus spellcaster we have the core sorcerer, the classic D&D still give us the wizard. I personally think that sorcerer are quite underpowerer compared to wizard, but they boots up if in hands of power palyer who loves to have loads of fireballs and let rouges (and/or clerics)do the dirty work...
In my campaign there is actually a sorcerer; he's completely new to RPGs, so i gave him the d6 Hit Dice to let him survive more (and according to CCE i'm not boots the class too much anyway). He's choosing wisely from his poor selection of spells, but nearly the total are -of course- combat related rather than "tactical".
That's the point. Wotc built a sort of living bazooka (is it written in that way?
) trying to redesign the wizard class. They failed. what we have is simply a spell machine gun... Psions (or psychik warrior) are the true wizard variant after all. I think that it is to be completely redone the sorcerer class, less close to the wizard and perhaps more to the druid geomancer (from MotW).
But i'm going far away from the subject of this thread, excuse me. (i will think on that idea more and give you my conclusion in short time... i hope!!!).
The mana system is a good way to manage arcane magic, and this one is good... but sorcerer in that way have truly no reason to exist.
Steven McRownt
In my campaign there is actually a sorcerer; he's completely new to RPGs, so i gave him the d6 Hit Dice to let him survive more (and according to CCE i'm not boots the class too much anyway). He's choosing wisely from his poor selection of spells, but nearly the total are -of course- combat related rather than "tactical".
That's the point. Wotc built a sort of living bazooka (is it written in that way?
) trying to redesign the wizard class. They failed. what we have is simply a spell machine gun... Psions (or psychik warrior) are the true wizard variant after all. I think that it is to be completely redone the sorcerer class, less close to the wizard and perhaps more to the druid geomancer (from MotW).But i'm going far away from the subject of this thread, excuse me. (i will think on that idea more and give you my conclusion in short time... i hope!!!).
The mana system is a good way to manage arcane magic, and this one is good... but sorcerer in that way have truly no reason to exist.
Steven McRownt
Eternalknight
First Post
Well, I will be writing up variant for the sorcerer, based on the wizard rules. They will be able to generate more mana per round at the cost of less spell flexibility. To answer your question, Crothian, they can hold mana for as long as they concentrate on it.
Eternalknight
First Post
bumparooni
Irda Ranger
First Post
Great Work!!
This is Great!! Let me just say that this is exactly what I have been looking for in a Alt.Arcane type. I really do believe that this almost completely negates the need for a Sorcerer (though there are some things faster Mana generation can get you), but I always had such problems with the Sorcerer that that's fine with me!!
I took the numbers from your webpage and ran then through the Excel wringer to look to statistical stuff. I have come to a few conclusions.
1) Levels 1-2, 8 and 17+ cause a problem for Wizards, though for different reasons. Currently 1st, 2nd and 8th Level Wizards have double the chance of spell failure than any other, and level 17+ Wizards have a ridiculously low chance of spell failure.
a. Reduce the Mana cost for 1st level spells from 3 to 2. This allows a Wizard to cast a first level spell in two rounds (instead of three) which brings this level in line with other levels and this decreases the average chance of spell failure from 10% to 5%, bringing 1st level spells within the +/- 5% failure rates of every other level from 3rd through 16th. (I would also reduce cantrip to 1. Just for "Does this really make sense?" reasons I think cantrips shouldn't take 2 rounds to cast.)
b. Increase the Mana die at 8th Level from d4 to d6. This decreases the average chance of spell failure from 10% to 5% without changing the average casting time of 3 rounds.
c. Failure rates drop through the floor at 17th level to -30% and less while at the same time casting time drops from 3 rounds to 2. This makes 9th level spells far easier to cast than any other level of spells, relatively speaking. If you want to bring 9th Level in line with all other levels reduce the Mana die 2d8 to 2d6 and reduce d20 to 2d8. This increase both the difficulty and casting time of 9th level spells.
2) Wizards are now completely linked to their Concentraion Skill Rank, reducing it from an option to a necessity (Just like the Ranger and Wilderness Lore, or Bard and Perform). They only get 2 SP/ level (less than the other two classes, and all Alt.Rangers have 6 SP/ Level to boot), and now one of them is always tied up (if they want to cast spells that is).
I would either
a. grant Wizards 1 SP in Concetration every level automatically, or
b. divorce the two by making a Hold Mana roll d20+Wizard Level v. DC of 2+Mana Held (which is statistically the same formula as the one you presented).
I think I like option a. better because that allows a Wizard to take Feats to boost his Concentration score (at the cost of Metamagic and Item Creation feats of course ).
As a foot note, all of my Calculations were done assuming the casting of the highest level spell possible, not including bonus spells due to high intelligence. Casting higher level bonus spells of course increases the difficulty and casting times, while casting lower level spells than you are capable of lessens both.
Here's my revised progression chart.
Wiz Level: 1 3 6 7 8 11 13 15 17 19
Mana Die: 1 d2 d3 d4 d6 d8 d10 d12 2d6 2d8
Spell Lvl : 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Spell Cost: 1 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26
With these tables all average casting times (with the exception of cantrips and 1st level, which are 1 and 2 rounds, respectively) are 3 rounds, and all average spell failures are -/+ 5%.
Great sytem Eternalknight!! I hope you and others find all this interesting! Lemme know what you think. If you want the actual spread sheets (I did them in Excel XP) send me an email and I will send them to you.
Irda Ranger
irdaranger@yahoo.comirdaranger@yahoo.com
This is Great!! Let me just say that this is exactly what I have been looking for in a Alt.Arcane type. I really do believe that this almost completely negates the need for a Sorcerer (though there are some things faster Mana generation can get you), but I always had such problems with the Sorcerer that that's fine with me!!
I took the numbers from your webpage and ran then through the Excel wringer to look to statistical stuff. I have come to a few conclusions.
1) Levels 1-2, 8 and 17+ cause a problem for Wizards, though for different reasons. Currently 1st, 2nd and 8th Level Wizards have double the chance of spell failure than any other, and level 17+ Wizards have a ridiculously low chance of spell failure.
a. Reduce the Mana cost for 1st level spells from 3 to 2. This allows a Wizard to cast a first level spell in two rounds (instead of three) which brings this level in line with other levels and this decreases the average chance of spell failure from 10% to 5%, bringing 1st level spells within the +/- 5% failure rates of every other level from 3rd through 16th. (I would also reduce cantrip to 1. Just for "Does this really make sense?" reasons I think cantrips shouldn't take 2 rounds to cast.)
b. Increase the Mana die at 8th Level from d4 to d6. This decreases the average chance of spell failure from 10% to 5% without changing the average casting time of 3 rounds.
c. Failure rates drop through the floor at 17th level to -30% and less while at the same time casting time drops from 3 rounds to 2. This makes 9th level spells far easier to cast than any other level of spells, relatively speaking. If you want to bring 9th Level in line with all other levels reduce the Mana die 2d8 to 2d6 and reduce d20 to 2d8. This increase both the difficulty and casting time of 9th level spells.
2) Wizards are now completely linked to their Concentraion Skill Rank, reducing it from an option to a necessity (Just like the Ranger and Wilderness Lore, or Bard and Perform). They only get 2 SP/ level (less than the other two classes, and all Alt.Rangers have 6 SP/ Level to boot), and now one of them is always tied up (if they want to cast spells that is).
I would either
a. grant Wizards 1 SP in Concetration every level automatically, or
b. divorce the two by making a Hold Mana roll d20+Wizard Level v. DC of 2+Mana Held (which is statistically the same formula as the one you presented).
I think I like option a. better because that allows a Wizard to take Feats to boost his Concentration score (at the cost of Metamagic and Item Creation feats of course
).As a foot note, all of my Calculations were done assuming the casting of the highest level spell possible, not including bonus spells due to high intelligence. Casting higher level bonus spells of course increases the difficulty and casting times, while casting lower level spells than you are capable of lessens both.
Here's my revised progression chart.
Wiz Level: 1 3 6 7 8 11 13 15 17 19
Mana Die: 1 d2 d3 d4 d6 d8 d10 d12 2d6 2d8
Spell Lvl : 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Spell Cost: 1 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26
With these tables all average casting times (with the exception of cantrips and 1st level, which are 1 and 2 rounds, respectively) are 3 rounds, and all average spell failures are -/+ 5%.
Great sytem Eternalknight!! I hope you and others find all this interesting! Lemme know what you think. If you want the actual spread sheets (I did them in Excel XP) send me an email and I will send them to you.
Irda Ranger
irdaranger@yahoo.comirdaranger@yahoo.com
Irda Ranger
First Post
Change of Focus
Another thing that this system would do is make Wizards extremely effective when time isn't of the essence, and much less so when it is (i.e. combat).
Out of combat situations would see in endless array of useful spells (as long as they are prepared). Need a castle? A high level wizard could build one in a day with Wall of Stone, Stone Shape and Fabricate, maybe one or two more spells. A 3rd level wizard with a good concentration score (Skill Focus, High Wisdom) could make an entire regiment of soldiers or thieves invisible in just a couple minutes using good old 2nd level Invisibility over and over again.
In combat Wizards would be less effective. You had a choice of getting off a good spell every 2-4 rounds (subject to Concentration check for Holding Mana, plus Damage Taken, plus being open to AoO the entire time) or getting off lower level spells every 1-2 rounds. I don't think I need to spell out in any detail that you would lose real quick to any other class this way.
Also, you are never guaranteed to cast any level spell (except cantrip at 17th level) in one round. My adjusted tables would guarantee 1st level spells in one round at 17th level. Clearly a wizard stuck in a fight would be a lot more dependent on Scrolls and Wands to get off good spells with any kind of speed. I think this fact is a very strong balance against the sheer amount of spells you could cast in a day. You can go through a lot of Wands and Scrolls if you have to use them at least once or twice in every fight.
Irda Ranger
Another thing that this system would do is make Wizards extremely effective when time isn't of the essence, and much less so when it is (i.e. combat).
Out of combat situations would see in endless array of useful spells (as long as they are prepared). Need a castle? A high level wizard could build one in a day with Wall of Stone, Stone Shape and Fabricate, maybe one or two more spells. A 3rd level wizard with a good concentration score (Skill Focus, High Wisdom) could make an entire regiment of soldiers or thieves invisible in just a couple minutes using good old 2nd level Invisibility over and over again.
In combat Wizards would be less effective. You had a choice of getting off a good spell every 2-4 rounds (subject to Concentration check for Holding Mana, plus Damage Taken, plus being open to AoO the entire time) or getting off lower level spells every 1-2 rounds. I don't think I need to spell out in any detail that you would lose real quick to any other class this way.
Also, you are never guaranteed to cast any level spell (except cantrip at 17th level) in one round. My adjusted tables would guarantee 1st level spells in one round at 17th level. Clearly a wizard stuck in a fight would be a lot more dependent on Scrolls and Wands to get off good spells with any kind of speed. I think this fact is a very strong balance against the sheer amount of spells you could cast in a day. You can go through a lot of Wands and Scrolls if you have to use them at least once or twice in every fight.
Irda Ranger
Eternalknight
First Post
Thanks Irda Ranger. I hadn't done a mathematical working out of it; thanks for doing the work!! I am a little confused though; after your second post, are you happy or unhappy with the system? I will be adopting your changes too, if thats ok 
Irda Ranger
First Post
Oh, Quite happy
With the second post I was just making some observations about how the new rules would affect gameplay. I personally love and the idea and am talking to my players about it now (I'm more democratic than autocratic, so I don't know at this time if we will use it). Just posting some thoughts for people who were thinking of implementing this.
Yeah, feel free to use the new numbers, I don't mind at all. Have you spent any time at Monte Cook's boards? They have a very active forumn dedicated to Alt.Magic Rules and I think this would be a great topic to bring up. Something to think about if you want more feedback.
Irda Ranger
With the second post I was just making some observations about how the new rules would affect gameplay. I personally love and the idea and am talking to my players about it now (I'm more democratic than autocratic, so I don't know at this time if we will use it). Just posting some thoughts for people who were thinking of implementing this.
Yeah, feel free to use the new numbers, I don't mind at all. Have you spent any time at Monte Cook's boards? They have a very active forumn dedicated to Alt.Magic Rules and I think this would be a great topic to bring up. Something to think about if you want more feedback.
Irda Ranger
Similar Threads
