Pathfinder 2E variant Hero Points

[CapnZapp]

I can add I had four PC deaths during the ~7 levels my "Sandpoint Sandbox" lasted.

That's not really such a large number that I felt compelled to add "extra lives" to the game; low-level adventurers have always been fragile in D&D.

But the higher randomness of PF2 in general did. I think the rulebook Hero Points did come about because Paizo found out through playtesting some meta mechanic to mitigate bad dice luck was warranted.

I just need a different kind of Hero Point. One less "invasive" on my attention as GM = one the players mostly handle themselves. One with real power = I don't have time for a mechanic that can have players spending hero point after hero point with absolutely zero change.

So I wrote one up!

 

[kenada]

Actually, it doesn't mirror my #1. I consciously decided against "increase the result by one category" implementation - converting a critical failure to a failure just doesn't cut it, meaning it doesn't give the Hero Point enough power; from a narrative viewpoint you need the power to convert a failure into a success just as much when you roll 1 as when you roll, say, 4.

Just wanting to point out the difference. Maybe a small one, but one I feel is important enough to mention.

That’s a fair distinction. I wanted to keep the rule simple. There are also some pretty nasty critical failure effects players might want to avoid (save or die effects generally only actually kill the target on a critical failure). Another difference is you can only do it to other players (not yourself). The reason is it’s meant to be a source of off-turn engagement for the other players.

#3 might resemble Fate, since that's a narratively strong rpg. But as I said, it's directly lifted from WFRP, a much more "classic" old school game.

And no, I would say it counts as abuse to use Fate Points to survive suicide missions. But that's a valid point, since already the 1st edition of WFRP contained the mechanism (so I'm sure it has been discussed several times over the decades since!).

Here's the original definition (I've checked; it matches pages 15 and 74 of the original book):

Fate Points

Fate is the essential difference that marks the character as an adventurer, rather than an ordinary run-of-the-mill citizen. Adventurer characters have a destiny, a mission, a definite goal in life. They may not be aware of what this is. It may not be very glorious, it may not even be...

wfrp1e.fandom.com

The first paragraphs (up until the table) was in the players' section. The remainder is from the GM's section. Here are some choice excerpts (remember, this stuff is from all the way back in 1986 )

Fate Points are powerful things and players should be reminded that they are precious.



I would say there's a difference between taking risks, making miraculous escapes and whatnot on one hand, and directly gaming the mechanism on the other. In the four decades I've played and GM'd Warhammer, the issue has never come up, honestly.

Thanks for the explanation. It’s not quite like conceding in Fate (or even burning edge in Shadowrun), since it’s more of a backstop to keep combat dangerous but not always deadly.

I can add I had four PC deaths during the ~7 levels my "Sandpoint Sandbox" lasted.

That's not really such a large number that I felt compelled to add "extra lives" to the game; low-level adventurers have always been fragile in D&D.

But the higher randomness of PF2 in general did. I think the rulebook Hero Points did come about because Paizo found out through playtesting some meta mechanic to mitigate bad dice luck was warranted.

I just need a different kind of Hero Point. One less "invasive" on my attention as GM = one the players mostly handle themselves. One with real power = I don't have time for a mechanic that can have players spending hero point after hero point with absolutely zero change.

If you had been using this Hero Point rule in that game, how many of those deaths do you think would have been averted? Do you think there were any times when the PCs would have received Hero Points and immediately lost them due to being at the cap?

I mention this because Fate Points as described above can only be used for averting death, but you’ve provided several uses for them and a relatively low cap. Unless your game is deadly enough that players need to use them, or your players are willing to risk not having them to avert death and spend them otherwise, I’d expect there’s a good chance they’ll gain new points while already at the cap.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thank you for your continued interest!

Yes, the low cap is also borne out of actual play experience.

As we ran Fate Points, you could alternatively use one to negate any given result (such as being hit for lots of damage) without being taken out of action.

You just spend the point, the attack does in fact not hit you, and you're still in the fight.

Of course, that's incredibly short term, since the very next attack could kill you instead. Still players used them this way since they never ever want to "give up" (and usage #3 is kind of giving up)

But if you had four or five Fate Points you could get an artificial sense of security or even invulnerability that really isn't good for the game (much like the suicide scenario).

So that's one reason to cap them low.

Of course I don't directly allow that usage in the present Hero Point alternative... (don't allow players to act negatively! They'll instantly want to use their points to make BBEG's fail on everything they do which is just disruptive) but usage #2 gives pretty much the same results: being able to interrupt the unexpected mega attack to move out of the way, for example.

Having just one (or two) Hero Points largely avoids this development.

The other reason is simple:

Telling players they will lose future Hero Points if they don't start to spend them "forces" them to interact with the mechanism!

Nothing more boring than a player just stockpiling his resources for a "later" that never may come.

After all, once off the low levels, killing D&D characters is actually hard, so I expect there to be several players who won't have to use any Hero Points to avoid death for many levels in a row, or perhaps at all.

These players then need an incentive to think about using their Hero Points for usages #2 and especially #1.

They still don't HAVE to. It's just that I give them a resource they CAN use to enhance the role-playing aspect of the game (as opposed to combat min-maxing)... and if they dislike wasting resources they "have" to come up with situations where they spend them!

 

[CapnZapp]

If you had been using this Hero Point rule in that game, how many of those deaths do you think would have been averted? Do you think there were any times when the PCs would have received Hero Points and immediately lost them due to being at the cap?

I mention this because Fate Points as described above can only be used for averting death, but you’ve provided several uses for them and a relatively low cap. Unless your game is deadly enough that players need to use them, or your players are willing to risk not having them to avert death and spend them otherwise, I’d expect there’s a good chance they’ll gain new points while already at the cap.

I believe you're talking about the "2 extra lives might not be enough" concern.

But my experience is that D&D seldom is THAT hardcore.

The expectation is that players feel using the first point is "free" in the sense they will still have the ability to escape death. Plus "use it or lose it".

The real cost would come when they consider using up their second and last point, since this leaves them with zero.

So my hopes and expectations are that they will, at the very least, use one Hero Point on #1 or #2 per booklet. Maybe only in the latter half of each book, but still.

And if they do use a point on #3, that keeps the campaign on track (a TPK can be very disruptive to a larger story) and they'll simply think that much harder about spending points until they're back at 2.

Time will tell.

PS. If I had included this variant in my Sandpoint campaign, it would totally have saved the lives of the heroes that died against ghouls and ghasts pretty early. So 3.