D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[DND_Reborn]

From the Vecna Battle Thread, here we go:

and....

Frankly, other than the fact Dread Counterspell doesn't seem to actually be a spell, I don't really see the difference.

Ok, since some posters were not aware of the bent of the discussion from the other thread, the purpose is more about whether Subtle Spell will stop Vecna from using Dread Counterspell, as it stops (normal) Counterspell.

Anyone want to continue chiming in?

 

[TwiceBorn2]

Dread counterspell (see last sentence): "Whatever the spell's level, the caster takes 10 (3d6) psychic damage if the spell fails."

 

[Delazar]

not limited to 60-ft range, and it's not a spell, so it can't be counterspelled

 

[MarkB]

The question that came up was whether Vecna could take this reaction to interrupt someone casting a subtle spell, as there would be no visible spell components to alert him that a spell is being cast. This works for regular counterspell, but it's been suggested that due to the slightly different wording and Vecna's expertise and sensitivity to magic he'd be able to tell that a spell was being cast even without such tells.

 

[Fanaelialae]

It's also locked in as if Vecna were casting counterspell using a 4th level spell slot, and can't be upcast. Which is relevant, IMO, because high level enemy spellcasters typically have little reason not to burn high level spell slots on counterspell. They're probably only going to last a few rounds, so it's not like they need to conserve the spell slots. This is different simply for the fact that Vecna can't choose to burn a 6th level (or whatever) slot for counterspell.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

But aside from that, what have the Romans done for us?

 

[dave2008]

Counterspell
The important difference is this stipulation to the reaction: "...you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell."

This means you have to be able to identify that a person is casting a spell to use this reaction. You have to see the act of casting a spell.

Dead Counterspell
This is also a reaction, but Vecna doesn't need to see that the target is casting a spell. He needs to see the target and it needs to be casting (otherwise there is nothing to counterpell), but he doesn't need to see them casting.

"Vecna utters a dread word to interrupt a creature he can see that is casting a spell."

Venca sees it and it is casting a spell. He doesn't have to see the act of casting.

It is also relevant that Venca cannot upcast this because he doesn't need to see the spellcasting and therefore could not determine the level of the spell to up-cast is dread counterspell. But really this is an artifact in the statblock change.

 

[Leatherhead]

This means you have to be able to identify that a person is casting a spell to use this reaction. You have to see the act of casting a spell.

This interpretation would imply you can't counter a pure verbal spell, such as Power Word Kill.

 

[LizardWizard00]

This interpretation would imply you can't counter a pure verbal spell, such as Power Word Kill.

Why? Isn't speaking the power word the act of casting. It is the verbal component isn't it?

Not exactly what we are talking about, but related:

 

[Leatherhead]

Why? Isn't speaking the power word the act of casting. It is the verbal component isn't it?

Because you don't see verbal components, you hear them. Which means you can't see the caster casting the spell, you hear the caster casting the spell, even when you can see the caster.