D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[dave2008]

Yes. Yes it could be. I’m trying to figure out whether or not the text actually says that it is!

It can fit the RAW. It can also fit the RAW for him not to. I want to twist theories to suit facts, not facts to suit theories.

I agree. And the RAW isn’t clear.

The RAW is clear. Not sure what your hung up on. At least 3 people in this thread have diagrammed the sentence to explain the RAW language.

 

[Parmandur]

So, if it just happens, regardless of whether he knows or not, if it's totally instinctive and beyond his conscious control, does he react this way every time someone he can see casts a spell, whether he wants to or not?

DM fiat, frankly.

 

[MarkB]

You could narrate it that way if you want. I wouldn't though. I would say he knows if a spell is being cast unconsciously (like an aura of spell detection), but he consciously decides to cast the spell. That fulfills the RAW.

But it also fulfills the RAW for him to only be able to use his reaction if the casting of the spell is visible and evident. Nothing in the RAW says that, just because a creature has a reaction that has a specific trigger, that creature must automatically be aware of every instance of the trigger having been fulfilled.

 

[dave2008]

@DND_Reborn, at least 3 people on this thread have diagrammed the sentence structure of Dread Counterspell and Counterspell to show you the difference. Have they convinced you or do you still think they are the same?

Just asking as we are going off the rails here, as usual, and I was wondering the OP was actually satisfied or not.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, in "normal" discussions, yes, but in D&D rulings? No. There are a LOT of abilities that work because the rules say they do, and coming up with story-reasons WHY is part of the game. A very fun part, IMO.

I’ll come up with WHY after I’m clear on WHAT, and not a moment before.

In this case, all the lore that has ever been about Vecna (including the current adventure featuring him) suggests that an ability to tell that a spell is being cast just by looking at a caster (yes, even a caster who is just thinking about casting) is perfectly within his wheelhouse.

I don’t care. The lore is irrelevant to me right now, I want to understand the content and intent of the rules text first. Please stop trying to use lore to convince me, it won’t work.

To me, that is enough to believe that it's possible that the contentious "that" is intended and therefore RAI.

Great. It doesn’t convince me.

But I would square that circle even if we weren't talking about Vecna. Because the rule says he can do it, so he can. I can think of many many reasons why anyone could do it, if the RAW says they can.

I don’t dispute that if he sees a creature, and that creature is casting a spell, the conditions for him to use Dread Counterspell are met. I dispute that he can use Dread Counterspell without knowing that the conditions for using it are met.

And I'm not a D&D players who particularly cares about RAW. To me, close enough is close enough, as long as everyone is having a good time.

Well I want to know what RAW is first, and then deviate from it consciously if I so choose.

 

[Parmandur]

But that’s still in response to stimuli, which is absent in the hypothetical case where he has no knowledge of the spell being cast.

The explanations are irrelevant. I’m trying to understand if the RAW gives him the ability to know a spell is being cast even if he can’t see or hear it. If the answer is yes, then a narrative explanation of how would be useful, but giving a narrative explanation before establishing the RAW is not convincing to me.

The RAW is knowledge agnostic: it has no bearing on the ability one way or the other. What Vecna knows and how is an after the fact fluff justification. The RAW doesn’t involve that element, but is clear in regards to.im game effect.

 

[dave2008]

But it also fulfills the RAW for him to only be able to use his reaction if the casting of the spell is visible and evident. Nothing in the RAW says that, just because a creature has a reaction that has a specific trigger, that creature must automatically be aware of every instance of the trigger having been fulfilled.

It is always up to the DM. What is your point?

The RAW of what is required is clear. The how & why are left up to the DM.

 

[Guest 7034872]

Yes. Yes it could be. I’m trying to figure out whether or not the text actually says that it is!

And I'll say that is never wrong or anything less than honorable, and it surely is often very tricky to nail down exactly what some seemingly-clear passage really, properly entails. That's why lawyers need such schoolin' before they're set loose on the world.

I thought Parmandur's claim, though, included not just an appeal to the immediate text of the description, but also the surrounding text of the adventure. Parmandur, did I read you rightly? If so, maybe something of that content could help answer Charlaquin's pursuit of precision on this. No?

I want to twist theories to suit facts, not facts to suit theories.

Right there with ya. A noble pursuit, surely.

 

[Charlaquin]

I mean, in all seriousness he probably.knows...

He probably knows. I don’t think that’s clear from the text.

but how or why isn't specified,

Sure. Once I’m confident that he is indeed supposed to know, I can get to work on coming up with an explanation for how and why. But I’m not there yet; it’s still not clear to me if he knows.

just the mechanical facts of what happens when Vecna sees a creature who is casting.

Right, and those mechanical facts are, he doesn’t need to make an ability check to figure out what the spell is, and he is capable of using Dread Counterspell. The question remains if he has any awareness of that capability.

 

[Charlaquin]

The point is: it is not unreasonable to react or speak unconsciously. People do it all the time and he are powerful magic users who have trained this ability for 100,000 years!

And like I said, you just need the awareness to be unconscious, he could still speak the power consciously.

Ok, but it is conscious. He can choose to use it or not, which is not the case with unconscious reflexes.