D&D 5E Vecna's Dread Counterspell vs. Counterspell -- What's the Diff?

[Charlaquin]

You could narrate it that way if you want. I wouldn't though. I would say he knows if a spell is being cast unconsciously (like an aura of spell detection), but he consciously decides to cast the spell. That fulfills the RAW.

What RAW says he knows it’s being cast unconsciously?

 

[dave2008]

He probably knows. I don’t think that’s clear from the text.

Sure. Once I’m confident that he is indeed supposed to know, I can get to work on coming up with an explanation for how and why. But I’m not there yet; it’s still not clear to me if he knows.

Right, and those mechanical facts are, he doesn’t need to make an ability check to figure out what the spell is, and he is capable of using Dread Counterspell. The question remains if he has any awareness of that capability.

No the mechanics are: he needs to see the caster and they need to be casting a spell. By RAW, he does not need to be aware.

 

[Quartz]

Note that Dread Counterspell seems to be usable through a scrying device.

 

[Charlaquin]

Clearly not - since he's got another reaction he can also do.

Much easier to just rule he knows a spell is being cast and can choose to dread counterspell or not.

I agree! But currently I don’t think that it’s clear from the text alone that he does know a spell is being cast. That’s a perfectly reasonable ruling to make, but it is a ruling, not the RAW.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think he wouldn't walk into it if that were the case.

After you make contact, obviously.

 

[MarkB]

It is always up to the DM. What is your point?

The RAW of what is required is clear. The how & why are left up to the DM.

It isn't clear to me that the RAW allow a reaction to be used in response to a trigger that the user does not know exists, nor that it confers upon the user the ability to automatically know that it exists. It's not just the how and why that's up to the DM. It's also the if.

 

[Parmandur]

He probably knows. I don’t think that’s clear from the text.

Sure. Once I’m confident that he is indeed supposed to know, I can get to work on coming up with an explanation for how and why. But I’m not there yet; it’s still not clear to me if he knows.

Right, and those mechanical facts are, he doesn’t need to make an ability check to figure out what the spell is, and he is capable of using Dread Counterspell. The question remains if he has any awareness of that capability.

The knowledge is assumed in the text, there is no trigger limiting the DM's use of the Reaction other than seeing the creature. The knowledge doesn't factor into the rules.

 

[dave2008]

What RAW says he knows it’s being cast unconsciously?

The RAW only requires he can see the target and that the target is casting a spell. Whether he is consciously aware a spell is being casts never comes into the RAW. You keep assuming that is needed, but the RAW never does.

 

[Charlaquin]

Vecna's stimuli is a spell being cast.

Not if he isn’t aware of it.

Raw is clear, you are trying to come up with an explanation that goes against RAW, we are giving explanations that are inclusive to RAW.

RAW is clear on what the conditions are for use of the ability, not on how or if he knows he can use the ability.

To be clear, RAW doesn't need any explanation at all. It just is what it is.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Parmandur]

What RAW says he knows it’s being cast unconsciously?

RAW, it can go either way, because nothing in RAW suggests what he knows or doesn't, just what he does.