Vexing Psionics Handbook Question

Prince Atom

Explorer
Given: I am a 4th-level psion (egoist) with Str 20.

Which of the following is true?

I have 7+3+3= 13 power points per day.

I have 7+3= 10 power points per day.


We're having an argument down here about the way psions gain extra power points. Half the group thinks the PsiHB is far too powerful (which is odd considering they're the ones with custom prestige classes with powers like "Heal 1 hp for every 100 gp of treasure you carry, once per day"), and I think this is at the root of the problem.

Should a 4th-level psion be able to manifest mind blast and have lots of points left over?

TWK
 

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7+3+3=13 pp

"Lots of points"????

13 - 9 = 4.

I wouldn't call that "a lot"

You can now only manifest 1 (one) 2nd level power and 1 (one) 1st level power for the REST of the ENTIRE day!!!

In otherwords, your character is pretty much walking meat for the rest of that day.

Psions are generally regarded as weak.

There are a few loopholes in the rules, get the latest FAQ, to see how these have been nerfed.

But they are in no way as abusive as the 2e powers or some of the other smackdowns you'll find for other classes.
 
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13

TWK, listen to green slime. He knows his stuff.


I have had my fair share of psions, both as PCs in my campaigns and NPCs I ran, but nobody even considered taking mind blast at low level.
I'm curious, what exactly do they think is so overpowered about psions? Psychic warriors can get buff, true, but they are very vulnerable to other psychic monsters, who can tear away at their beloved power points with nasty psionic attacks.
 

Psions are weaker than other classes as written (this coming from a guy who loves the class).

The biggest problem: psychic combat.

If you use it, the psion has to keep a reserve of power points to avoid becoming ability score hamburger for some psionic monster or enemy psion. If you don't then they have this chunk of their class that is completely worthless.

Psionic combat has changed very little since its ill planned introduction in an appendix of the 1e Player's Handbook. It actually really annoyed me when I heard they were keeping this sacred cow.

I ditched psychic combat all together and gave them bonus feats. It balanced them out. I'm still looking for something that will make them more different than wizards (although with the different ability score thing and the power points versatility, they have some of this already.

DC
 

13 PP. I thought this was spelled out in the PsiHB somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment.

Best not show your group Bruce Cordell's alternate PP progression from If Thoughts Could Kill & Mindscapes, which gives psions more base power points.
 

green slime said:
7+3+3=13 pp

"Lots of points"????

13 - 9 = 4.

I wouldn't call that "a lot"


... for a 4th-level character? I'd call that a lot.

And I don't know precisely what gets their goats about psionics. They aren't being very clear, or maybe I'm not understanding correctly. Apparently it busts their chops when a low-level character can mind blast half a dozen bugbears and end a fight in one round, but I think they're overlooking the fact that this person is tapped after that feat of power.

TWK
 

And I don't know precisely what gets their goats about psionics. They aren't being very clear, or maybe I'm not understanding correctly. Apparently it busts their chops when a low-level character can mind blast half a dozen bugbears and end a fight in one round, but I think they're overlooking the fact that this person is tapped after that feat of power.
A couple of things
1) Psionics are generally underpowered (especially due to MAD), but there are some busted things in there, and psionic combat is one of them. Heck, so is MAD, if you exploit it. (Mind Switch? :rolleyes: )

2) The ability to Mind Blast an opponent at 4th-level is very similar to the ability to Disintegrate a character at 3rd-level that second edition psionicists seemed to like. People HATED second edition psionics for precisely this kind of reason.

(People are really willing to believe 3e psionics is overpowered because of it's bad rep, but when they see things like Mind Blast at 4th-level it looks like the book is confirming the bad rep.)

In many cases, even high costs (eg most of your power points) are not enough to keep the reward in check.
 
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Actually I disagree.

It is one thing to have the ability to potentially end a combat with a single attack, and actually have the confidence to do it.

If you believe this is the last battle you will be facing for the day, fine. Then yes, this is a GOOD ability.

However, if you are unsure, if you believe there may be later surprises/ambushes/reinforcements , then a low level character would be very foolhardy to actually burn so much of his abilities/powers for the day in a single attack.

Firstly, given a large number of creatures, some are likely to make the save, even given a bad Will save.

Secondly, you can't do much else all day, or during the rest of the night.

4 psionic power points, with a 4th level Egoist. What are you going to do? Claws of the Bear? Do you really want to get up close and personal with your number of hitpoints? And after those 4 hours are up, what then? You only have one power point for the rest of the day.

Personally, as a low level psion I'd want to keep at least half of my power points in reserve, to be able to survive an attack by a group of psionically endowed monsters.

Now the chances may not be very high, and your DM may be very generous, but sooner or later, you are going to get attacked by a group of them. The DM, has after all allowed psionics in his campaign. Each defense costs power points. Once you are out of power points, you are into stat loss territory, which is hard to repair for low level characters.

What really makes Psionic combat suck is that psions (the ones you want to affect with your psionic attacks) have good Will saves that scale with level, while your attacks DC's do not! Most wizards do not try to roast the rogue with a fireball. Thus the expenditure in comparisson to the potential for damage is VERY weak. But the DM does not need to worry about this, nor do monsters expend power points to attack or defend!!!

So in summary:
against large numbers of creatures, someone is likely to make the save anyway. So the battle is in no way a walk over.
Clerics, Wizards, Psions and the like are likely to shrug it off and blast you with spells requiring Reflex saves.

Psionically endowed monsters just laugh at your feeble mind and a) start eating your innards
b) Fry your mind
c) All of the above

So my suggestion is:

As a psion, I'd
a) take Mind Blast as soon as is practical. (Because it is good to have an ace up one's sleeve, after all)
b) Avoid psionic combat like the plague it is.
c) Rarely if ever use mind blast until I had around 40 or more power points (7th level or higher), as I like to be more than a once per day one trick ponny.
d)hang around in the background and do as little as possible all day, trying to harbour my precious power points until they are REALLY needed.
 

It is one thing to have the ability to potentially end a combat with a single attack, and actually have the confidence to do it.

This sounds a bit like psychofeedback, which is nearly universally hated on the WotC Psionics Forum. Virtually every DM nerfs it.

Firstly, given a large number of creatures, some are likely to make the save, even given a bad Will save.
Mind Blast has the save DC of a 4th-level power (and quite simply one of the best 5th-level psionic powers out there), and you can pull it off at 4th-level. I still have a problem with this.

(In fact, Bruce Cordell nerfed it somewhat in Mindscapes. It's still 5th-level, but it doesn't stun the opponent as long, and it no longer penetrates PR IIRC.)

4 psionic power points, with a 4th level Egoist. What are you going to do? Claws of the Bear? Do you really want to get up close and personal with your number of hitpoints?

I think the design of the egoist needs another thread :)
Besides, Mind Blasting sounds quite telepathic to me. There's no reason to turn every psion into a telepath.

Now the chances may not be very high, and your DM may be very generous, but sooner or later, you are going to get attacked by a group of them. The DM, has after all allowed psionics in his campaign. Each defense costs power points. Once you are out of power points, you are into stat loss territory, which is hard to repair for low level characters.

What really makes Psionic combat suck is that psions (the ones you want to affect with your psionic attacks) have good Will saves that scale with level, while your attacks DC's do not! Most wizards do not try to roast the rogue with a fireball. Thus the expenditure in comparisson to the potential for damage is VERY weak. But the DM does not need to worry about this, nor do monsters expend power points to attack or defend!!!
I agree that it sucks. You're never going to use it to attack, and you either have to waste power points on defense modes or suffer stat damage for days.

However I'm surprised that you mentioned a psionic monster's power point usage (or lack of usage) as a problem. A psionic monster still has to waste a standard action using an attack mode (except Mind Blast, which is actually useful). [Sure, it hoses the player character, but it almost never actually knocks them right out or prevents them from manifesting a psionic power immediately afterwards. It's bad tactics, and a waste of a standard action.] The psionic being has no way of determing it's opponent's power point score (indeed, it usually can't determine who is psionic and who isn't), and it would be better off using Brain Lock, Mass Concussion or whatever other free powers it has, physical attacks (also free), or whatever other (useful) options it has (usually free).

The only exception is the brain mole, whose sole purpose is to hose psionic opponents (if they can figure out who is psionic, since Detect Psionics takes three rounds to do anything).

Even unintelligent creatures are governed by natural selection. An udoroot that constantly used an attack mode is going to suffer, whereas one that uses biocurrent is actually going to do something useful in combat and enjoy crispy fried humans in it's fertilizer.

Frankly, I think a DM who is using an attack mode (except Mind Blast) is engaging in meta-gaming and unfairly targeting the player character while using bad tactics - or they're as bad at math as I am, and they're still using bad tactics.
 

The Whiner Knight said:
Given: I am a 4th-level psion (egoist) with Str 20.

Which of the following is true?

I have 7+3+3= 13 power points per day.

I have 7+3= 10 power points per day.


We're having an argument down here about the way psions gain extra power points. Half the group thinks the PsiHB is far too powerful (which is odd considering they're the ones with custom prestige classes with powers like "Heal 1 hp for every 100 gp of treasure you carry, once per day"), and I think this is at the root of the problem.

Should a 4th-level psion be able to manifest mind blast and have lots of points left over?

TWK

Well that depends for some reason how can you have Str of 20 at 4th level?
Just like wizards get bonus spells per day it saids it in page 7-8 of the Players Handbook Psions do it by level.If you per-roll your character and got a must of gotten a 18 and had used a Haft-Orc, or maybe you just got a Magical Belt of Giant Strength plus something. Yes, you can use mind blast unless you selected them from your Psion attack mode but you can only use to the limit of your power points.
 

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