Flipguarder
First Post
This is a humorous item for anyone who knows elementary math behind simple probabilities.
Vicious or Supremely Vicious?
- Thread starter Kzach
- Start date
The RAW question is:
Is the extra damage from a high crit weapon "critical damage"?
It's in the section titled Extra Damage on page 278 of the PHB (and called that in the High Crit section), not in the section titled Critical Damage. It is in the Extra Damage section of the Critical Hit Damage section, but...
So by a liberal reading of RAW:
+6 Supremely Vicious Executioner's Axe vs. +6 Vicious Executioner's Axe:
damage + 3D12 (roll again) + 6D8 (roll again) (+57, +63.75 (roll again) with Devastating Critical)
vs.
damage + 3D12 + 6D12 (+58.5, +64 with Devastating Critical)
By a more literal reading of RAW:
+6 Supremely Vicious Executioner's Axe vs. +6 Vicious Great Axe:
damage + 3D12 + 6D8 (roll again) (+52.5, +58 with Devastating Critical)
vs.
damage + 3D12 + 6D12 (+58.5, +64 with Devastating Critical)
Either way, the Vicious weapon still wins out over the Supremely Vicious weapon.
High Crit means nothing special, at least for some types of high crit weapons at certain magic bonuses.
Is the extra damage from a high crit weapon "critical damage"?
It's in the section titled Extra Damage on page 278 of the PHB (and called that in the High Crit section), not in the section titled Critical Damage. It is in the Extra Damage section of the Critical Hit Damage section, but...
So by a liberal reading of RAW:
+6 Supremely Vicious Executioner's Axe vs. +6 Vicious Executioner's Axe:
damage + 3D12 (roll again) + 6D8 (roll again) (+57, +63.75 (roll again) with Devastating Critical)
vs.
damage + 3D12 + 6D12 (+58.5, +64 with Devastating Critical)
By a more literal reading of RAW:
+6 Supremely Vicious Executioner's Axe vs. +6 Vicious Great Axe:
damage + 3D12 + 6D8 (roll again) (+52.5, +58 with Devastating Critical)
vs.
damage + 3D12 + 6D12 (+58.5, +64 with Devastating Critical)
Either way, the Vicious weapon still wins out over the Supremely Vicious weapon.
High Crit means nothing special, at least for some types of high crit weapons at certain magic bonuses.
Last edited:
DracoSuave
First Post
Do you have a RAW source for this definitive response?
Well, on page 278 of the PH, "high crit" is specifically lumped together with the extra dice you normally get from magic items. It calls the maximized part "critical damage", but I don't think "critical damage dice" are defined anywhere. I can't think of a sensible definition other than "dice you roll for damage when you score a critical hit", though.
Also, your example is correct about the mean damage (though mean damage isn't everything), but change +6 to +5 and supremely vicious is back on top. I guess my simple rule of thumb needs to be modified to "with high crit on a d12 weapon when you have less than twice as many crit dice from the enhancement as you do from other sources, supremely vicious is better". That has less of a nice ring to it
Also, your example is correct about the mean damage (though mean damage isn't everything), but change +6 to +5 and supremely vicious is back on top. I guess my simple rule of thumb needs to be modified to "with high crit on a d12 weapon when you have less than twice as many crit dice from the enhancement as you do from other sources, supremely vicious is better". That has less of a nice ring to it
By 0.5 average damage?
I personally think that "Supremely Vicious" was one of those "what if we did this?" design ideas, coming up with the game mechanic and then throwing it on a weapon.
It's basically a solution looking for a problem.
Flipguarder
First Post
It's even worse than that, its like a soda can opener that both requires a index finger to use, and is much less effective and reliable as your index finger is on it's own.It's basically a solution looking for a problem.
Considering there is a lower level item that works in the same vein that is without exception better.
keterys
First Post
No, Supremely Vicious is better than Vicious for many high crit-focused characters.
I still don't think it should exist, though.
Re +5: Yes, it's better in mean damage by only 0.5, but it's better in other ways too.
I don't really think it's a terribly necessary item, but this is the -second- big book of items already; it's not like you're at all forced or expected to use it. I'm not sure what else WOTC can print, really. You don't want new items to be better or worse than old ones, but you don't want them to be exactly the same, either. So they have to be better in some situations and worse in others, all the while ensuring that some wacky build doesn't turn "some situations" into "all the damn time". Most of the simple concepts have been done by now, so you wind up designing stuff like... "supremely vicious".
I suppose you could have an item ("totally wicked" maybe?) where the crit dice are "d10, brutal 2", but while that's less fiddly, it seems terribly boring to me. I'm glad they're at least trying to do more interesting stuff, but also glad that it doesn't wind up creating power creep.
I don't really think it's a terribly necessary item, but this is the -second- big book of items already; it's not like you're at all forced or expected to use it. I'm not sure what else WOTC can print, really. You don't want new items to be better or worse than old ones, but you don't want them to be exactly the same, either. So they have to be better in some situations and worse in others, all the while ensuring that some wacky build doesn't turn "some situations" into "all the damn time". Most of the simple concepts have been done by now, so you wind up designing stuff like... "supremely vicious".
I suppose you could have an item ("totally wicked" maybe?) where the crit dice are "d10, brutal 2", but while that's less fiddly, it seems terribly boring to me. I'm glad they're at least trying to do more interesting stuff, but also glad that it doesn't wind up creating power creep.
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