• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Videogame Influences!

Now, I personally don't care about some 1,000 other video games. That's where you are being obtuse. It seems fairly OBVIOUS when someone says, "Heh. 4E's a bit too video-gamey to me." Most reasonable people understand quite well what they mean. The person is referring to the similar mechanics and *feel* of WOW and other similar MMO/video games that employ an obvious mechanic format and structure that is easily recognizable in 4E.
Its not obvious at all that video-gamey refers to WoW and other MMORPGs. I'll grant that the MMO-y label that some were tossing around when 4e came out was specific and reasonably universally understood. Of course I still question the claims of MMOness of 4e, but thats a different topic.

Just about everyone I know easily understands what people mean when they say "It's too video-gamey for me*.

But really--like Umbran said. It's not a big deal man. You don't need to write a huge thesis about it. It's like having a preference--or not--for the flavour of Oranges. Most people seem to understand what people are referring to about 4E being too video-gamey. You, apparently, can't.

Fine. It's a mystery to you then. I've explained it several times now--and other people I know--both critics and FANS of 4E alike--don't have such a problem understanding what is meant by the description.

I've explained to you the similarities *I* see between 4E and video games, and I explained what I think others have tried to explain about it as well.

But if most discussions involve a wildly different set of similarities (MMOs, twitch gaming, single player rpgs), then perhaps the term video-gamey isn't real useful for conversation. Because from where I sit, I can see that video-games have pretty much gone for every possible mechanic and model. So regardless of what you pick wrt 4e, you can find some game out there that has done something similar.

Long verbage cut short, if you would like to understandable to all, and not just to those who agree with you, dropping the videogamey term and going right to the similarities will make your argument much clearer.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Greetings!

I play WOW. I'm quite familiar with WOW's system. I also play Rolemaster, and D&D 3.5; Computer games--almost by definition, are simpler. The entire interface requires considerably less knowledge and active input from the player, compared to a Tabletop RPG.

I've spent way more time tweaking my Thief in FFXI than any D&D character I've played, whether AD&D 1e, 2e, or D&D 3.5, even though I've played D&D since 1981 and FFXI for only 2 years.

It's simple. Many people obviously do see a homegenization and a siplification of the rules and systems in 4E. Many of these people *ALSO* happen to play WOW and other MMO's and computer games--

and they ALSO have agreed and identified clear similarities.

Some people are just fine with those similarities.

Other people do not want that same level of such similarities in the D&D game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I strongly disagree. I think a lot of people haven't played WoW or other CRPGs and are mistaken about the complexity or depth these games offer. I have played many of these games, and I wouldn't call WoW or FFXI or many modern CRPGs "highly simplified" or the classes "homogenized" (to quote your other post) at all.
 

Some people don't want or enjoy overly-simplified combat mechanics that make them think of video games instead of D&D mythical combat; or the feeling of classes being overly homogenized--like what Blizzard just did in the recent patch to wow--like what some have felt has occured with 4E. Less detailed options. Less mechanical rules to make it easier to *construct* choices, options, pathways, character designs that feel distinctly different from every other NTH lvl *fighter* out there, and so on.

Video Games make everything more simplified, more homogenized, with inherently less detail, less options, less mechanics, less *customization* ability, than a traditional PNP RPG.

I think its pretty difficult to make the case that 4e combat is simplified from 3e and lacking in options. It's more tactically rich than any other edition. 3e had a fairly limited set of options and they typically involved clunky mechanics that nearly always required book reference and the options were quite sub-par mechanically unless a melee character specialized in them with a number of feats (the spiked chain trip fighter, or a disarm build, e.g.). Simplified is the wrong word for what 4e did with combat. They streamlined it, did away with clunky subsystems to make combats run smoother. But options aren't taken away or denied and the mechanical advantages of fighting tactically are stronger than ever. 4e has in system support for doing just about anything in combat.

Like always, a good DM can wing it and improvise, and plenty of that went on with 3e, but 4e builds unlimited options into the combat system in a similar way to how 3e made near limitless class combinations possible. The major difference is that 4es options remain mechanically viable across the board.

Which leads us to the homogenization issue. To say this comes from WoW or other video games is putting the cart before the horse. Homogenization of character powers grows out of the design choice of seeking to achieve a balance between the available classes. This hasn't often been a true goal of class design in many class-based systems of the past. It certainly wasn't a primary goal for single player RPG video games. The goal of class design was to make sure that all available classes could complete the game, more or less, but not that they were in harmonious balance with each other. With MMOs, class balance became a primary design goal out of necessity. Player's complained if their chosen class was weaker than another class, especially if it was at their own schtick. PvP necessitated even stricter balance as classes often came into direct conflict and if class x can always beat class y then you've got a problem.

Some tabletop RPGs, and some d20 3PP have been built around the idea of bringing better class balance to tabletop RPGs. It is a design choice. But it is not a design goal or implementation that arose from the video game format. It is the answer to a design problem, in either medium. The way to achieve actual class balance is to homogenize, to some degree, all classes. Put class abilities on the same framework, differentiate them by role, effect, flavor, etc., and balance is easy to achieve and easy to adjust as players find loopholes and exploits or new products or patches clash with old.

The 4e designers made a choice that class balance was something that this edition should focus on based on feedback from 3e, where one of the major complaints was the power disparity at middle-high levels between melee classes and the caster classes.

Now, I certainly understand some players disagreeing with the design choice or not liking the power structure or any number of other complaints. It's just that saying this aspect of 4e came from video games is short sighted and due to the posters own familiarity with games like WoW. And that's only valid to a certain extent. Because of WoW, we talked a friend into joining our 3e game a few years ago. He had never played a tabletop RPG. When we were introducing the concepts to him, he found them easily idenfitifiable because they were "just like WoW". The concepts I am talking about were things like hit points, levels, class choices, spells and spell levels. For a long time, everything he did in D&D he related to WoW and used WoW's terminology. This was simply because that is where he first encountered these concepts. The "new" thing to him was roleplaying, which he did not do in WoW, but found both a knack and love for it, to the point where he moved to a roleplaying server in WoW to RP in that environment.

It's understandble why some would say that D&D having achieved actual class balance for the first time, despite the lip service paid to it as a design goal over the years, would see it as something coming from WoW or other MMOs as that is where they would be familiar with the framework that makes it possible. But there are tabletop systems that utilized such homegenization years ago to achieve such balance, so it isn't something that video games invented and 4e borrowed.

Just for the record, I am of the position that there is nothing wrong, and indeed it is great, with various mediums influencing one another. I like cinematic and literary elements in my game, and my own extensive playing of WoW has had, in my view, a very positive impact on some aspects of my DMing.

What I have a minor problem with is the short-sightedness of attributing a trait to something just because its what you are most recently familiar with. Designing for class balance has been around for many years and homogenization is one way it is achieved, whether in a tabletop or video game.
 

SkyOdin said:
Do you have any links to specific posts? I honestly can't remember ever seeing a case where someone wasn't using "videogamey" or the like as a complaint.

Every post I've made on the issue ever. ;)

I mean, there can be complaints, too. Because it's a description, it could be describing something good or something bad or something just observed and neutral.

Thasmodius said:
I think its pretty difficult to make the case that 4e combat is simplified from 3e and lacking in options.

It's probably a good thing SHARK wasn't trying to make that case, then, no? :p

ardoughter said:
Shark has been making the point that WoW has influenced D&D toward homogenisation of the classes. Personally I doubt that. In my opinion the pressure for balance (aka homogenisation) has been RPGA and in particular to take RPGA to the net via the VTT. If WoW has had an influence on that aspect of the 4e design then it was more in showing a road, the pressure was there already.

It's sort of a question of goals.

In a videogame, especially one that can be played competitively, "BALANCE" is a very big goal, and a lot of things are sacrificed to get to that goal. It's not always *the* central goal, but it is usually in the top 3.

In D&D, historically, balance has always been a subjective thing left up to DMs to determine. If something was "too powerful" for one game, it might be "just right" for another. The only way something is unbalanced is if it's not adding to the fun, and in that way, a +100 vorpal sword of 7,000 actions might be great fun for some games, not for others, but in some games, a +1 sword would be too much power.

The march of editions has steadily eroded this by attempting to standardize things (especially in 3e and 4e). This has made the game more balanced (and thus easier for DMs to determine what power is, really), but also more homogenized (because that +1 sword should have about the same value regardless of DM, and that +100 vorpal sword should be fun-destroying in any game, so it gets removed).

Balance moving to the center of design has been a gradual process, but 4e certainly keeps the importance that 3e placed on it, and that does make them more like videogames than 1e and 2e were, because videogames also highly value balance.

ardoughter said:
My allegation is that without further elucidation the statement is somewhat unclear.

FWIW, I do agree with you on this. "Videogamey" is a very broad term and it does require some more specificity. It's not always invalid, and it's not always negative, but what, exactly, it means, can be hard to puzzle out.

ardoughter said:
Whatever happeded to nano technology

Everything's better with nanotech!
 

In D&D, historically, balance has always been a subjective thing left up to DMs to determine.
I think this is not as black & white as many believe. I certainly can point to Gygax statements in The Dragon about AD&D design decisions that were made for game balance purposes. The methods used to create game balance, and the amount of weight the various factors were used to influence may have varied in theory (what the designers intended) and practice (what the players/DMs did), but AD&D was designed with some thought about internal game balance.
 

but AD&D was designed with some thought about internal game balance.

Some thought, yes. But the DM was meant to be the controller and arbiter of it ultimately, right? Versus in 3e and 4e, the system is supposed to have balance hard-wired into it.
 

Some thought, yes. But the DM was meant to be the controller and arbiter of it ultimately, right? Versus in 3e and 4e, the system is supposed to have balance hard-wired into it.
To a degree. However, one of Gygax's stated design goals for AD&D was to make games more consistent from table to table. AD&D was supposed to move some power away from the DM and toward the rules. Gygax even stated that if you weren't playing by the AD&D rules you should not say you were playing D&D, you should say you were playing something else ("Variant AD&D" was commonly used at conventions).

Obviously Gygax didn't go as far as WotC and the RPGA have today. However, the theory was that for D&D to grow players had to feel comfortable playing with different DMs at large events, or when moving to a new area. OD&D didn't work towards that goal, or at least TSR felt so at the time.

Now, balance was a side thought in that "consistent" design, obviously. Other factors (including flavor, or the designer's personal preferences) came out as or more often. Still, the steps toward our current paradigms in D&D design did start with the AD&D design.
 
Last edited:

I think the "video game" feel is this: feeling like you're playing a game, instead of feeling like you're a character in a fantasy world.

Classes using similar mechanics can do this. A Wizard casts spells, does all sorts of arcane tricks. It's different from swinging a sword. But if the mechanics don't use different mechanics, the player's experience is the same.

Another example: Powers that can only be described in the game world by stepping out of the character's head. That makes it harder to feel like you are your PC.
 

I think the "video game" feel is this: feeling like you're playing a game, instead of feeling like you're a character in a fantasy world.

But that's an odd standard because then a video game could not feel video gamey.

edit: And the proper words to use there would be immersive vs not immersive.
 
Last edited:

Considering that the only game that I'm running is a Star Wars Saga game that takes place during the Old Republic era, I've definately taken a little bit of stuff from the games, although--surprisingly--I'm more in line with the comics. The first mission takes place on Taris, and one of the Jedi went to the medical clinic and helped out there for some time, while the Mandalorian defector fought in the gladiator arena.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top