D&D 5E (2014) Volo's Guide will be available for Roll20

[Kryx]

You are my favorite D&D person and my enjoyment of the hobby is enriched by your great labors, so please take this criticism with that in mind.

Thanks for the praise - not sure if it's from my Shaped sheet work or my spreadsheets, but comments like this feel great - so thanks!

I think you have heavy confirmation bias because of your close collaboration with Roll20 and are offering up a red herring.

You may be surprised to hear that there is next to zero collaboration. They created their own sheet to compete with mine. So you can be sure there is zero bias in that regard . The bias I do have is as a developer so I can empathize with the roll20 team's position, but that has nothing to do with my role as a developer for a sheet.

I think this may be a generational issue. I have no idea the age of the poster above, but the opinion expressed is one shared against the cloud in general. The cloud is definitely here to stay and applications like Fantasy Grounds being on your own machine are definitely a relic of the past. No developer or company would choose that route today.
I'm not saying people shouldn't dislike that model, but they shouldn't criticise roll20's handling of soundcloud as it is not related imo. They should criticize the model of cloud based applications. If that was the criticism then that's an opinion on the system.
But the critism levied was their handling of the soundcloud situation. IMO they handled that incredibly well. They had replacements up within 48 hrs. That turnaround in IT is insane.

 

[LordEntrails]

I think this may be a generational issue.

Cloud vs on premise? Yea, probably. And I find it humorous.

When I was young, I thought all the old guys were stodgy and refused to use the latest technology for numerous reasons, often because they didn't wanted to learn something new.

Now that I'm old, I still go for new things (note the "cloud" is just another name for remote computing), but I temper it with experience and knowledge. I'd like to think wisdom. I also have a longer scale view of things. [/QUOTE]

I have no idea the age of the poster above, but the opinion expressed is one shared against the cloud in general. The cloud is definitely here to stay

Whoever said the cloud was going away? It has it's very good uses. But it will never be the end-all. And it will never replace all on-premise (or whatever you chose to call it) needs.

and applications like Fantasy Grounds being on your own machine are definitely a relic of the past.

You base this opinion of FG being a relic on what? Yes it has an out of date engine, but that has nothing to do with cloud vs on-premise. The model of software purchase with a permanent usage license will always be desirable for some markets. Renting your software, computing power and storage will always have it's place too. One will never completely replace the other.

No developer or company would choose that route today.

I'm going to have to call bull on this (simple an unsupported opinion). There are dozens of hundred-million dollar software companies that have no intention to move away from on-premise applications (even as many of them move into aslo providing SaaS options). There are reasons/cases that that putting data and IP on devices you don't control is not a preferred solution. That will never change. (And I don't intend to argue the reasons why here.)

I'm not saying people shouldn't dislike that model, but they shouldn't criticise roll20's handling of soundcloud as it is not related imo. They should criticize the model of cloud based applications. If that was the criticism then that's an opinion on the system.
But the critism levied was their handling of the soundcloud situation. IMO they handled that incredibly well. They had replacements up within 48 hrs. That turnaround in IT is insane.

I didn't argue or comment on the Roll20/Soundcloud situation. Only pointed out that one of the top 3 reasons I refuse to use R20 is because of their vulnerability to such situations. If they are vulnerable to other companies, the R20 users are much more vulnerable because they also have to worry about R20 making any decisions they don't like or want.

 

[Kryx]

You base this opinion of FG being a relic on what? Yes it has an out of date engine, but that has nothing to do with cloud vs on-premise. The model of software purchase with a permanent usage license will always be desirable for some markets. Renting your software, computing power and storage will always have it's place too. One will never completely replace the other.

A Virtual Tabletop is a consumer facing business. No company in their right mind would choose to limit their market to only PC owners or only Mac owners and probably not even a combination of both.
Desktop applications still exist, but very very few consumer based desktop applications are being developed. The vast majority are web based. The reason for that is because the market is significantly bigger and for the vast majority of users the usability (no installations, use anywhere you have a web-connected device) exceeds desktop applications.

I didn't argue or comment on the Roll20/Soundcloud situation. Only pointed out that one of the top 3 reasons I refuse to use R20 is because of their vulnerability to such situations. If they are vulnerable to other companies, the R20 users are much more vulnerable because they also have to worry about R20 making any decisions they don't like or want.

That's a fine opinion to hold and I have no problem with that argument. I don't agree and as pointed out above it's foolish for a consumer focused company to choose that route, but that's a fair opinion to have.

My only issue was with the statement that Roll20 was specifically a risk, not cloud in general.

 

[LordEntrails]

... No company in their right mind would choose to limit their market to only PC owners or only Mac owners and probably not even a combination of both.

Based on what? You make a dig and imply that anyone who doesn't agree with you is not "in their right mind". Such an approach is antagonistic, to say the least.

In most industries there would be no problem, or argument, if a company only chose to target 95% of their target market (Windows, Mac, Linux).(https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0)

Now, for a company that had no product history, and a clean slate, and was designing a consumer software application, their are engines and tools to allow them to build a cross platform application. So maybe, targeting only 95% of your market might not have a valid justification. But I wouldn't explicitly insult someone just because they might have reasons beyond my knowledge to make such a decision.

Desktop applications still exist, but very very few consumer based desktop applications are being developed. The vast majority are web based. The reason for that is because the market is significantly bigger and for the vast majority of users the usability (no installations, use anywhere you have a web-connected device) exceeds desktop applications.

And you base this on what? Industry reports on the number of web-based vs client based applications? Significantly bigger? 5% according to the industry report I linked...

Maybe you mean to add phone and tablet users? Except most VTT users I know who have tried VTT's on tablets say they are simply not large enough. And I can't imagine bothering with a phone.

Now, throw in the new stick computers like the VivoStick or Ideacentre for $80 that turn your wide screen TV into a computer and the pressure to move VTTs to a tablet lessens significantly.

That's a fine opinion to hold and I have no problem with that argument. I don't agree and as pointed out above it's foolish for a consumer focused company to choose that route, but that's a fair opinion to have.

My only issue was with the statement that Roll20 was specifically a risk, not cloud in general.

We don't agree. But I would like to know what you base your opinion on. I'm happy to be swayed, but not by opinions without any fact or apparent experience to go with them.

Roll20 is specifically a risk, and a higher risk than just a cloud/SaaS provider is. Because they are a small and relatively new software company. Would a SaaS application from Oracle be a high risk? No more than what is inherit in the chosen platform. But they have tens of years of business experience and hundred of millions or billions of dollars to support them.

R20? Nope, a few years of history, run by a group of smart well meaning people with a few years experience running a company. Doesn't mean they won't succeed, but it does mean it would be naive to not accept doing business with them is at a higher risk than is inherit with just a SaaS company.

 

[LordEntrails]

[MENTION=6670944]Kryx[/MENTION]

Oh, and don't forget, or confuse, that a web based app vs a client app is not quite the same consideration as a subscription based application hosted remotely vs a indefinite license for an application you self-host.

Again, there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

 

[LapBandit]

Thanks for the praise - not sure if it's from my Shaped sheet work or my spreadsheets, but comments like this feel great - so thanks!


You may be surprised to hear that there is next to zero collaboration. They created their own sheet to compete with mine. So you can be sure there is zero bias in that regard . The bias I do have is as a developer so I can empathize with the roll20 team's position, but that has nothing to do with my role as a developer for a sheet.

I think this may be a generational issue. I have no idea the age of the poster above, but the opinion expressed is one shared against the cloud in general. The cloud is definitely here to stay and applications like Fantasy Grounds being on your own machine are definitely a relic of the past. No developer or company would choose that route today.
I'm not saying people shouldn't dislike that model, but they shouldn't criticise roll20's handling of soundcloud as it is not related imo. They should criticize the model of cloud based applications. If that was the criticism then that's an opinion on the system.
But the critism levied was their handling of the soundcloud situation. IMO they handled that incredibly well. They had replacements up within 48 hrs. That turnaround in IT is insane.

Generational? Yeah maybe, given your picture I'm between 5-10 years older. I'm also a dev, in fact right now I'm trying to to get Kubernetes working for Docker on GCP as a platform for the rest of the team to write microservices using .NET Core so I don't feel behind the times.

My suspicion is they felt they could use another service and get away without paying and it looks like they were right.

 

[SkidAce]

Derailed thread is derailed.

SkidAce is sad...

 

[Kryx]

I am sorry SkidAce. I will cease my derailment immediately.

I, for one, was pleased to read the article about Volo going to Roll20. WotC has made many IT blunders in the past and 5e is barely digital at all. This decision bodes well for the future of digital for 5e.

 

[SkidAce]

Cool [MENTION=6670944]Kryx[/MENTION]. I was thinking the same thing, the fact that this is even a thing was fantastic news. From my point of view, it came out of nowhere, and I also think that it is a good sign for the future.

 

[LordEntrails]

Cool @Kryx. I was thinking the same thing, the fact that this is even a thing was fantastic news. From my point of view, it came out of nowhere, and I also think that it is a good sign for the future.

It should not have been out of the blue WotC now has agreements with two partners to provide all of their content digitally. One of those agreements is close to a year old and they have been releasing digitally on the same schedule as printed materials.