VoP and Monk

[slothbeast]

A friend and I just joined a new campaign, and I am new to the 3.5 rules. He has put together a 1st level monk, 18 Dex and 18 Wis, with the Vow of Poverty feat. I am not completely familiar with the rules, but the character seems really unbalanced. It starts with an AC of 22 (i.e. 4 from Dex, 4 from Wis, and 4 from VoP). Is this right? Do all of those bonuses stack?

 

[UltimaGabe]

A friend and I just joined a new campaign, and I am new to the 3.5 rules. He has put together a 1st level monk, 18 Dex and 18 Wis, with the Vow of Poverty feat. I am not completely familiar with the rules, but the character seems really unbalanced. It starts with an AC of 22 (i.e. 4 from Dex, 4 from Wis, and 4 from VoP). Is this right? Do all of those bonuses stack?

They stack. But keep in mind that the other player is playing the weakest class and spent two feats to give himself a Game Mechanic that, if the player doesn't act as the exemplar of good, he'll lose all benefits of it. Not to mention he'll never be able to hit the broad side of a barn.

Anyway, how exactly did he wind up with an 18 in Dex AND an 18 in Wis? If anything's broken, it's his starting stats.

 

[Blackrat]

Yes they do. If he has managed to get 18 in two stats by legal means (with point buy or by rolling so that the DM has seen the rolls) it is right. The VoP is largely considered a broken rule, but in my opinion it depends heavily on the style of the campaign and the nature of the player wether it is broken or not. If the game is played with wealth-level of normal RAW then it is pretty balanced. It can even be underbalanced if the DM is in habit of giving treasure extremely generously. Assuming the player doesn't cheat and plays by the intent of uber-goody-goody character (that is; doesn't try to circumvent the restrictions) it should be okay.

But then again there are DM:s like me whose campaigns are mostly low-wealth/low magic. In that kind of game VoP is grossly overpowered.

 

[slothbeast]

The DM gave the players 76 stat points to distribute as they see fit, with no stat lower than a 10.

I prefer rolling the dice, but this is the DM's choice.

 

[Blackrat]

Well in that case I'm quessing he's going for pretty high-powered campaign. And it could mean that your friend's monk might even find himself being underbalanced with the rest of the group in higher levels. And doesn't that mean he has scores of 10, 18, 10, 10, 18, 10. Which means he will definetly be underbalanced.

 

[Kat']

Yeah, he has a high AC... for a level 1 character. As soon as you hit lvl 5-6, it's not that high any longer. And with 10 Int, you can't take Combat Expertise to make up for this. And with 10 Str, you won't be able to hit (your standard goblin has AC 15...) or damage anything. And with 10 Con, you'll be dead quicker than you can look.

So yeah, he won't get hurt much. For now. He won't do much either. Monks are a weak class in normal play. Denying them magical gear won't make them better.

 

[Blackrat]

Well the feat grants them more and more AC and hit-bonuses as he grows in level so his AC will be pretty high all the way to lvl 20, but on other areas he will be on the weak side. Especially with that con 10. So okay, it's hard to hit him, but when someone does he will be down immediatily.

 

[Kat']

Pretty high all the way to level 20? Are you kidding? VoP grants at highest levels the following AC bonuses: +10 Exalted, +3 Deflection, +2 Natural. ANY melee character at this level could afford gear granting him +15 AC total. Let's say a +2 mithral full plate, a +3 heavy shield, and a defending weapon, and there goes your sword-and-board frontliner.

High-level AC is all about Dodge bonus and magical items, which the monk never will get. Heck, with very good dex and wis, his AC at level 20 will be what, 45-50? Any CR 20 monster hits at +50 at least. And apart from his AC, he has absolutely no defensive options: no fly, no concealment, no invisibility. And he can't count on his hit points to survive for long either.

 

[Blackrat]

Yes I said pretty high. Which means that definetly not as high as any fighter will get it but way higher than rogues and mages do. And as I have already stated I agree that it is underpowered build in this way. Those 10's in four abilities will ensure he will not be doing anything but dodging until his dead in couple of good hits. It's only + is his AC, and even it won't keep him alive very long.

 

[irdeggman]

VoP has a lot of restriction built in. Most of the problems I have seen arise because people take it for a power up and do not role-play the character and try to find ways around those restrictions.


If done in context it is not overpowering, but keeping it "in context" is the key part.

Remember that the VoP character still gets a full share of all treasure and items - he just can't keep them or give them to the other party members.