Vop vs spell casting materials

[fafhrd]

Actually this one is incorrect, well subject to debate anyway. A spellbook is not a magical item and thus a VoP wizard could borrow one. Back to that beg components from other party members issue. There at least seems to be a thread to stand on here.

Agreed. If you use the "Mastering a Foreign Spellbook" from CArc, you might have a basic workaround.

I had this picture in my mind of a massive wall, which is tended by the Ecumenical Brotherhood of the Graven Stone or somesuch(a bunch of VoP caster types) who "Master" the wall and thus share their spells and accomplishments with the world. None lay claim to it, they all use it in common. Arcanists, even clerics, druids and archivists visit this font of knowledge and often will scribe a new spell on the wall in appreciation, and so it grows and the caretakers learn, frequently remastering it.

 

[irdeggman]

I interpret the second part of the feat as being, one non expensive mundane item.

This is a bit extreme since the feat use plurals throughout.

"use ordinary simple weapons." "Wear simple clothes, possibly including a hat and sandals" Carry enough food to sustain your for one day in a simple sack or bag. a spell component pouch.

Limiting this to one non expensive mundane item, makes for a lot of mostly naked characters, IMO.

 

[Malum]

Party members are not allowed to carry your belongings and you take them when you need them, the VoP gives great rewards for the pc showing unbelievable restraint, sacrifice and dicipline, not a pc wanting to work the rules or bend them untill they fit.
I have read several posts about the nature of our group, specifically this player. Our group like most is split. 1 Player that really likes to manipulate the rules and/or the dm, 1 is a hard core traditionalist whom enjoys Dwarfs Fighters & Human Rogues as pc's, 2 that work within the rules and like a good pc history with whatever build they make-both are wannabe actors, and myself, I dont know myself that well, so I would be a little of each. Needless to say we have some good role playing in our group. As for the 1 pc he is the 1st, our groups manipulator, most would label him as a power gamer. But he has a great counter every time
"This is fantasy role playing right?"

I think we are on the same side of this discussion, but only disagreeing about a few fine points and making them mountains when they should be mole hills.



Here are the 2 applicable pieces of text.

From the Wizard class description:




From the magic overview section:




Again the two texts do not say they must be added only that by learning them in this way they can be added to her spellbook. “for” and “to add to” do not state only added to. Now if the wizard doesn’t add them to her spellbook they are mostly useless since she can’t cast them without a spellbook to study, unless of course she goes the Spell Mastery route.



Well I pointed out that there are two things there.

One to decipher the spell and then another to learn the spell.

To me “learn” means “to know”.

So once the spellcraft check is made the wizard now “knows” the spell in question. There is no mention of having to place it into her spellbook in order to know it.




Not exactly, it states that a VoP caster can’t cast a spell from a scroll, wand or staff. And can't own or use any material possessions The Voluntary Poverty section talks about begging expensive material components from other party members so there is at least something to hang onto here.




Actually this one is incorrect, well subject to debate anyway. A spellbook is not a magical item and thus a VoP wizard could borrow one. Back to that beg components from other party members issue. There at least seems to be a thread to stand on here.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Blanket is the right word. So no one wanting Wizard/Monk and VoP could want it for any reason other than powergaming?

No one wanting specifically a Monk 2/Wizard 3 would want it for any reason other than powergaming. Ask the player if he means that he took wizard 3 times and then switched to monk, or if it was the other way around (and no more monk).

Personally, I could see some good roleplaying possibilities out of it. But apparently, that's not a possible motivation in this case.

Absolutely there is RP potential. I have no doubt about that. It is definitely not the primary motivation.

You don't even know the player, you're making a heck of an assumption based off a couple of classes and a feat.

Malum's post proves me right, though. It was an educated guess, but it was a correct one.

 

[DonTadow]

Party members are not allowed to carry your belongings and you take them when you need them, the VoP gives great rewards for the pc showing unbelievable restraint, sacrifice and dicipline, not a pc wanting to work the rules or bend them untill they fit.
I have read several posts about the nature of our group, specifically this player. Our group like most is split. 1 Player that really likes to manipulate the rules and/or the dm, 1 is a hard core traditionalist whom enjoys Dwarfs Fighters & Human Rogues as pc's, 2 that work within the rules and like a good pc history with whatever build they make-both are wannabe actors, and myself, I dont know myself that well, so I would be a little of each. Needless to say we have some good role playing in our group. As for the 1 pc he is the 1st, our groups manipulator, most would label him as a power gamer. But he has a great counter every time
"This is fantasy role playing right?"

Ok, I'm coming from the direction that this is one of my players (not the bad one). However, if this is the bad one them, Malum, you already know/knew better. If this is a powergamer don't allow it.

 

[Dimwhit]

No one wanting specifically a Monk 2/Wizard 3 would want it for any reason other than powergaming.

Well, I disagree, present player notwithstanding.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I had this picture in my mind of a massive wall, which is tended by the Ecumenical Brotherhood of the Graven Stone or somesuch(a bunch of VoP caster types) who "Master" the wall and thus share their spells and accomplishments with the world. None lay claim to it, they all use it in common. Arcanists, even clerics, druids and archivists visit this font of knowledge and often will scribe a new spell on the wall in appreciation, and so it grows and the caretakers learn, frequently remastering it.

[hijack]This is actually a really awesome concept - if appropriately guarded and restricted. Furthermore, it blends beautifully into one of the sects in my homebrew world. I think I might just claim it - if you don't mind.[/hijack]

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, I disagree, present player notwithstanding.

Oh, c'mon. No one takes only two levels of monk for any reason other than powergaming.

 

[fafhrd]

[hijack]This is actually a really awesome concept - if appropriately guarded and restricted. Furthermore, it blends beautifully into one of the sects in my homebrew world. I think I might just claim it - if you don't mind.[/hijack]

Gratified to hear you like it! That's what this site's all about. Feel free to borrow, modify or steal entire.

As for protection, with the order being somewhat tethered to the wall, it would have some ardent defenders. I could also see a wise and practical baron capitaling on all the coin pilgrims would generate. He'd likely want to protect the resource.

Even though the scholars wouldn't be able to milk coin off the project, I could see them insisting that those who learn from it add to its contents in whatever capacity they can(to limit PC abuse.)

If you use the idea, please let me know how it works out.

[/sidetrack]

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What about the 1sp for the peasant's outfit? Or the 2gp for the dagger? Or the 5gp for the spell component pouch? Nothing says a VoP character can't have anything of any value whatsoever.

Actually, it does.

And those items are specifically called out as exceptions to the "You cannot own any material possessions" rule.

Spellbooks - especially spellbooks whose cost would feed a family for a significant period of time - are not called out as exceptions to the rule.

Ergo, you can't have a spellbook.

And yet you can have a crossbow that is 2 times the value of a blank spellbook. The items a VoP PC may carry are not based on absolute value of material items.

IMHO, VoP is broken- not in terms of its effects, but in its poorly worded drafting. My opinion is not based on what it does (RAW) to a wizard & his spellbook, but rather to the divine spellcasters and their divine foci.

A different VOP thread in which I said the following:

By a RAW interpretation of the Vow, a divine focus (DF) is not listed among the items a VoP PC may carry.

Some (including, apparently, someone who answered a FAQ) have interpreted the fact that a spell component pouch does not include a DF (or any other foci or more expensive components) to mean that a VoP PC cannot carry one of those either. I follow the approach that a DF is not in a standard spell component pouch (as listed in the PHB) because is something that needs to be aquired seperately since:

1) Even a wooden Divine Focus costs 20% of the value of a spell component pouch, so its extremely unlikely a merchant would just "throw one in" for free. That rationale goes for any component ≥ 1gp in value.

2) The most likely source of a Divine Focus is going to be the temples and clergy of the faith, not a standard merchant.

3) Divine Foci differ from faith to faith, so there's no way a merchant would include ALL of them in a pouch or would even have all of them in stock. Some would even be outlawed depending on politics or alignment- and note that good faiths would NOT be immune from this. Consider the RW conflict between Islam and the other "Religions of the Book" (Judaism & Christianity): while some Islamic countries have a high tolerance for the symbology of Judaism and Christianity, some others bar any non-Islamic symbology or religious books (even if they permit the practice of the religion, its trappings may be banned).

4) It is also perfectly possible for a PC to create a DF with the appropriate craft skills.

My contention is that VoP (as well as some of the other vows) is meant to help players simulate the saintly human beings and dieties (depending on the particular theology) of the real world, like Padre Pio, Buddha, Jesus, etc.- to whom are attributed miracles. Many of the Exalted Feats are obviously based on aspects of miracles attributed to such saints- Nimbus of Light, Stigmata.

To use a strict RAW reading of VoP would prevent such a PC from doing things that most closely resemble the very deeds such saints are said to have done seems, IMHO, ludicrous.

Modeling any of the Apostles in D20 would require the VoP, yet they were the ones who set up the structures of the early Christian church, including the rites and rituals that spells like Atonement were based on, and performed such acts that spells like Bless and Tongues were based on.

And yet VoP RAW would prevent them from doing just those things...

Why would a god's servant, seemingly blessed beyond most other mortals (in a real sense, the D&D equivalent to a living saint), be robbed of his ability to cast divine spells? Most Paladin spells and many Clerical spells require a divine focus, yet RAW, the VoP would prevent them from carrying it. Bless, something you think an Exalted Paladin or Cleric could cast, becomes unusable. Calm Emotions? Identify? Owl's Wisdom? Protection From Evil? Raise Dead? Regenerate? Spiritual Weapon? The Summon Monster spells? Sunburst? Tongues?- all are completely uncastable for a VoP PC in a campaign where the feat is used RAW.

Example:

Sir Reginald, A fallen Paladin, comes to Brother Lumen...

Sir R: "Oh most holy Brother Lumen, I have violated my vow to our god, and I must set things aright in order to resume my crusade against evil! Can you purify me, and restore me to my status?"

Br. Lumen, Regular Cleric: (casting Atonement) "Sir Reginald, arise and sin no more- continue to do thy good works in the name of the Shining One!"

Br. Lumen, Exalted VoP Cleric: (casting Slay Living) "Sir Reginald, you have failed to keep thy vow sacrosanct...would that I could purify thy soul for you have been a mighty and righteous blade in the divine hands of the Shining One. But as one of the most holy chosen of our shared faith, I have no choice but remove the ill-formed sketch of your personage from the beauteous and perfect painting of the gods! DIE, VILE SINNER!"

...simply because Atonement requires a divine focus, and Slay Living does not.

...the stricture against a holy symbol is nonsensical and antithetical to the purposes of the intent of the VoP. Its contrary to the inspirational sources of the VoP, and it removes the ability of the cleric to perform core, essential clerical duties...and I mean that not just in the game mechanical way (turning) but also in the heirarchical, day-to-day duties of a priest or holy man (the power and duty to offer absolutions and blessings, to consecrate holy ground, or sanctify the vows of others). A priest who cannot do these things is no priest.

And once again, re:the spellbook- its a 15gp item when aquired- its only value lies in the spells the PC writes in it. Its extremely odd to me that a VoP PC would have to give up his spellbook the instant he writes down a spell in it for future study and rememorization- odd enough to me that I would not make a VoP PC give it up.

The point? VoP is, IMHO, seriously flawed in regards to divine spellcasters, gutting them. That it does a similar number on Wizards is no surprise to me, and is (to me) an indicator that it is similarly flawed in respect to them.

There are plenty of ways to play VoP without gutting the spellcasters.

YES, I know what VoP says RAW. I just don't think that it was intended to be written as it was- see above quotes.

(Someone on another thread about this stated that the guy who drafted VoP stated that spellbooks and divine foci were not intended to be excised- he messed up- but I have yet to see an actual quote or link to that effect.)
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RE: Spell Mastery- A 16 Int Human Wizard takes Spell Mastery at 1st level, along with VoP. He can learn 2 spells. He will not be able to learn any more spells until 3rd level, when he becomes eligible to take Spell Mastery Again.

What are the odds that a Wizard who can only cast 2 spells will make it to 3rd level? Lets say he does...he learns 2 more spells, and will now have access to 4 spells until he makes 6th level.

What are the odds he'll live that long?
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No one takes only two levels of monk for any reason other than powergaming.

I know you're kidding, but I still disagree.

I once based a PC on a character from the comic book Archer & Armstrong (one was an Immortal, one was a monk). The comic-book monk had been kicked out of the monestary, ending his training. Ditto my PC.