Vorpal Sword = death effect?

[Sejs]

jlhorner1974 - I agree, the other examples were right on. Hmm, Quivering Palm... that I dono. Lemme look.

OKay, says Quivering Palm doesn't work on Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead, Incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits. Fort save to negate, supernatural ability. Gotcha, and looking in the MM at creature types Constructs and Undead are immune to death effects, but the rest are not. All of them are immune to critical hits, except Incorporeal creatures (which I did not know until now, heh. Crits on incorporeal critters, who'dve thought?).

Personally, as a DM I'd probably say that yeah, Death Ward would work against Quivering Palm, because it sits in a gray area - it's supernatural, the only effect is that it kills the target, and the target has to be both alive and possessed of a vulnerable anatomy. The argument against it, however, is that there's no difficulty in Raising someone who's been killed by Quivering Palm, and it sounds like it attacks the body instead of the life-force.



Zorlag - Sounds like an interesting idea. Say 4th level, Necromancy, duration of 1 minute per caster level, target of one touched weapon or 50 units of ammo? Have it work if the target is slain by the enchanted weapon (killing blow is landed by said weapon) the target can't be raised, it's considdered a [death] effect, etc. Sounds like a good Assassin spell, also.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

What I want to know is, if you allow Death Ward to block a monk's Quivering Palm, does the ward have to be active when the monk first delivers the strike, or when he chooses (possibly days later) for the strike to kill?

 

[jlhorner1974]

Your question actually makes me think about whether Death Ward should stop Quivering Palm...

To answer your question though, the Quivering Palm strike only starts the vibrations, which are not fatal in itself, so Death Ward does not prevent this. The death effect occurs when the Monk wills the target to die, so that is when Death Ward needs to be up to prevent death from occurring.

Edit: The more I think of it, Quivering Palm really seems to be right in that gray area of whether it should be prevented or not. It is indeed a magical death effect in a general sense (it does not work in anti-magic and it is a save or die effect), but by the same token it does not have a [Death] descriptor and the point made that it was never stated that you cannot raise someone affected by it is very valid. I think it could really go either way. I tend to favor the Magic: the Gathering approach and favor the defender, so I think I would allow Death Ward to work.

 

[Endur]

In another version of D&D, we had a spell (don't remember the name) that worked sort of like the Frenzied Berserker's "Deathless Frenzy" ability. As long as the spell was up, you couldn't die, no matter what your hit points were like. Of course if you were -10 (or worse) when the spell expired, you were out of luck.

Death Ward, on the other hand, isn't as powerful as "Deathless Frenzy." It just seems to be a protective spell, an automatic counter spell for all magical death effects.

With regards to the vorpal weapon, it seems there are two schools of thought ... one that focuses on the spells used in creating the item and one that focuses on the actual ability of the item.

Those of us who focus on the spells used to create the item have an easy choice with regards to vorpal weapons and death wards, we see death spell as a pre-req for the item, we see that death ward blocks death spell, ergo, death ward blocks vorpal sword.

Those of us who don't care about the spells used to create the item have a harder choice to make regarding whether death ward affects vorpal weapons. They have to make a decision as to whether the actual effect of the magic item is blocked by the death ward spell.

I'm not interested in re-hashing the debate over whether the spells used to create magic items are important with regards to the actual functioning of the item. (I've been through this debate several times with KReynolds and other folks -- I'm convinced that the stronger argument supports my side -- they're convinced that the stronger argument supports their side -- both sides are reasonable -- pointless to discuss further, since every GM will make his or her own decision in their game).

Tom

 

[Berk]

In another version of D&D, we had a spell (don't remember the name) that worked sort of like the Frenzied Berserker's "Deathless Frenzy" ability. As long as the spell was up, you couldn't die, no matter what your hit points were like. Of course if you were -10 (or worse) when the spell expired, you were out of luck.

Death Ward, on the other hand, isn't as powerful as "Deathless Frenzy." It just seems to be a protective spell, an automatic counter spell for all magical death effects.

With regards to the vorpal weapon, it seems there are two schools of thought ... one that focuses on the spells used in creating the item and one that focuses on the actual ability of the item.

Those of us who focus on the spells used to create the item have an easy choice with regards to vorpal weapons and death wards, we see death spell as a pre-req for the item, we see that death ward blocks death spell, ergo, death ward blocks vorpal sword.

Those of us who don't care about the spells used to create the item have a harder choice to make regarding whether death ward affects vorpal weapons. They have to make a decision as to whether the actual effect of the magic item is blocked by the death ward spell.

I'm not interested in re-hashing the debate over whether the spells used to create magic items are important with regards to the actual functioning of the item. (I've been through this debate several times with KReynolds and other folks -- I'm convinced that the stronger argument supports my side -- they're convinced that the stronger argument supports their side -- both sides are reasonable -- pointless to discuss further, since every GM will make his or her own decision in their game).

Tom

Ya kinda make it hard to reply to your post without bringing up the debate. I won't though, even though I could point out several things that make the spells used to create an item not important as you put it. But then again I'm not gonna start up this damned debate no matter how wrong people are. =o)

 

[kreynolds]

With regards to the vorpal weapon, it seems there are two schools of thought ... one that focuses on the spells used in creating the item and one that focuses on the actual ability of the item.

Actually, those are both in the same school of thought. They would only be separate if flaming weapons exploded into a fireball every time they hit. They don't. So its clear that those two scools of thought are actually just one.

Those of us who don't care about the spells used to create the item have a harder choice to make regarding whether death ward affects vorpal weapons.

What's hard? Its not a spell. It lops your head off. If it dropped a VW Jetta on your head, Death Ward still wouldn't protect from it. It really isn't as difficult a choice as you make it out to be.

I'm not interested in re-hashing the debate over whether the spells used to create magic items are important with regards to the actual functioning of the item. (I've been through this debate several times with KReynolds and other folks...

I was in that debate? I don't remember that. When was it? A while back?

 

[AuraSeer]

If it dropped a VW Jetta on your head, Death Ward still wouldn't protect from it.

"Next time, let the clutch out easier."

 

[kreynolds]

"Next time, let the clutch out easier."

I love that commercial!!!

 

[Berk]

ROFL!!!!