Vorpal vs fortification armor

[Hypersmurf]

I certainly see a difference between immunity to crits, and a 100% chance of negating the crit.

If you're immune to crits, the crit still happens; you just don't take the extra damage. Crit-triggered effects - like Vorpal, Flaming Burst, etc - still trigger and have their normal effect.

If you have a % chance of negating the crit, and that chance arises, the crit never actually happened. Crit-triggered effects remain quiescent, because the critical that would trigger them was negated.

On the other hand, someone with 100% chance of negating a critical does not benefit from any of the other things someone gets by virtue of being immune to criticals - like immunity to the Stunning Fist feat, for example. He isn't immune to crits (and therefore still subject to Stunning Fist); it's just that every time someone threatens to crit him, they don't...

-Hyp.

 

[Angel of Adventure]

This came up in our last game. The pty paladin had Moderate fortification and I rolled a 20 on the vorpal sword attack (me being the DM). I let fortification work against it, more for dramatic purposes than any other reason. The PC knew his head could get taken off, as did the other PCs, so rolling for the percentage on the table made for a cool moment

-AoA

 

[Sejs]

Hi,

Is there and official ruling or an answer in the FAQ (I don't think so), is the fortification enchantment protecting from the vorpal weapon?
I would say yes because it protects from critical hits and without critical confirmation roll there is no decapitation.

I'd say Vorpal wins.

Vorpal states it can lop off the heads of things that are immune to crits, it's just that they're not indesposed by such measures. Well, fortification armor wouldn't make you not need your head on your body like, say, being a golem would.

 

[Nail]

I'd say Vorpal wins.

Vorpal states it can lop off the heads of things that are immune to crits,.....

....and since Fortification doesn't make you immune to crits, what Vorpal does to things that are immune to crits is irrelevant.

 

[Cabral]

I say the Fortification does not protect versus Vorpal. Now this may come from playing too much Magic the Gathering but ....

Roll to hit. Result is a threat
Roll to confirm. Result is confirmed
Trigger two events: Critical Hit and Beheading
Fortification negates the critical hit, not the confirmation or the beheading ...

... waits for FAQ/Errata to sneak attack contradict him ...
Note: This is how I read it ... not how I think it should work ...

 

[Nail]

Trigger two events: Critical Hit and Beheading...

And if the beheading weren't dependent on confirming a critical hit - a hit that has been negated by the Fortification property - I'd agree with you.

That is to say: The "two events" of which you speak are not simultaneous and independent. Beheading is dependent on the critical hit.

 

[Sejs]

....and since Fortification doesn't make you immune to crits, what Vorpal does to things that are immune to crits is irrelevant.

*shrug* Just my take on things.

Essentially the only point of discussion as far as I understand it hinges on the "(followed by a successfull roll to confirm the critical hit)" line. As I personally see it, Vorpal is a seperate mechanic from the critical hit process. If I have a Keen Vorpal scimitar that crits on a 15-20, Vorpal is subject to neither the weapon's inherrent crit range, nor its expansion via application of Keen (or the Improved Critical feat). So if you're wearing Heavy Fortification armor, you're not taking any extra damage from the crit that was negated.. but your head's still off.

Fortification armor says it negates the critical hit or sneak attack and damage is instead rolled normally. Vorpal does no damage. If I lop off an iron golem's head, it's not hurt any more than it would be if I just smacked it with my sword. If Vorpal does no damage, and Fortification armor negates the extra damage from critical hits and sneak attacks, what then is being negated when and if it trumps Vorpal?

 

[Scion]

That is to say: The "two events" of which you speak are not simultaneous and independent. Beheading is dependent on the critical hit.

one does not necissarily follow the other.

The critical cannot be negated until it is a critical.. that is, after you roll to confirm. Once you have rolled to confirm the crit the critical itself is negated, but the vorpal effect only relied on confirming the critical roll, not it actually being a critical hit.

Personally, I have modified vorpal to actually fit within existing game mechanics (increased threat range and multiplier, making it an exceedingly deadly critical, but very expensive).

But, given that fortification negates the crit, but the only way for it to do so is to roll the critical confirmation and succeed, at which point the vorpal has already gone off.

Although, if I did allow vorpal as written then I would allow fortification to negate it without hesitation.

 

[Cabral]

As Fleari quoted, it's dependant on a successful roll to confirm the critical hit, not the critical hit itself. The language is designed to be parrallel but outside of the critical hit mechanism. So the beheading is not negated.

In fact the Vorpal mechanism does not say it affects creatures that are immune to critical hits. It is understood. It does make a special note about what beheading means, including to undead and golems, but apart from that it remains silent.

Also note: while both Heavy Fortification and Vorpal are +5 effects, adding them onto +1 magic items increases the costs by 35,000 gp versus 70,000 gp respectively.

Now like I said, this is how I'd read it, not how I'd implement it. I'm not a big fan of unstoppable attacks and even less so of luck based ones. I'd let the fortification apply.

 

[Sejs]

Likewise, Cabral. I'm not generally a big fan of auto-kills, be they death spells or vorpal weapons. They strike me as being terribly anti-climactic.

I'm actually thinking of taking a note from Scion's post above, and instead of having Vorpal being 'oops, your head's off', being a further augmentation to the weapon's critical threat and multiplier that stacks with other, similar effects, thus making it extreemely deadly, but not an instant win.