Vow of Poverty Help

[ogreific]

OK first off I am brand new to the forums and this is my first post, although it is not my first time on this site.

Saying that I have a question about the Vow of Poverty. I have a level 12 Monk with the Vow of Poverty and have been playing in a campaign for a few weeks now. During the game I have been really kicking arse and have been nigh unstoppable. Seeing this the DM did a little research of his own and said that the Vow of Poverty was way too overpowered.

He made an argument that even though I can’t use/possess magic items that the magical bonuses I would gain from it would cost more than it would if a regular character got it. He then went ahead and gave me a +4 level adjustment. His rational for the actual number of 4 came from comparing the average gold someone would get in a campaign and how much gold it would cost for those abilities given by the Vow of Poverty.

After much arguing though he finally said that he will give me a chance to change his mind if my argument was right. He has given till next game to get a good argument.

So what I would like to know is if there really are any arguments for either side to whether or not the Vow of Poverty should have a level adjustment.

Oh and if anyone is really confused by this then i'll try and clear it up more.

 

[Nightfall]

Ogreific,

My advice, don't fight your DM on this. I am against him giving you an LA. I'd probably just give a 50% penalty on your XP awards, and save everyone the trouble. But I can honestly say, as a DM, I wouldn't allow VoP in my games. At least not the BoED version. BoHM version isn't NEARLY as bad though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

First- Welcome to the boards!

BoHM? Which one is that?

I don't see the problem with VoP, personally.

The AC bonus can be matched or exceeded by magical armor, and they don't apply to touch attacks.

The attacks the PC makes will not be any more dangerous than by a middling power magic weapon.

The abilities are strongly slanted towards fighting outsiders and undead (assuming your Monk took things like Sanctify Ki Strike), and only eventually towards evil.

Are you sure you're not stacking things that shouldn't be stacked?

 

[Nightfall]

Book of Hallowed Might by Malhavoc Press.

No but I guess I'm against a Vow that basically "Gee I don't want this" and grants you all kinds of stuff. Heck that didn't help the monks in the 1st Crusade when the Sarcans/Arabs came a calling...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I understand, but on the other hand, it DOES fit in with the legends surrounding holy persons throughout history, like St. Francis of Assissi or Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha) in the sense of all the miracles attributed to them.

With that in mind- I do have ONE problem with VoP - it grants more than any other sacred vow. I would probably like to see the other vows get similar treatment, for balance's sake.

After all, such personages typically had taken all or most of those vows (in game terms), so it seems slightly arbitrary that VoP is the one that grants you the big ol' laundry list of abilities.

Perhaps Abstinance would grant immunity to poisons, and add neutralizing abilities, etc. as opposed to mere bonuses.

Perhaps Obedience would grant Law Domain spells and abilities.

Perhaps Purity would grant immunity to level draining/negative energy effects.

etc.

In other words, my problem isn't with the VoPovery, but with the relative weakness of the other sacred vows.

 

[ogreific]

Wow you guys answered fast. Well anyway im not challangeing the DM exactly im just trying to convince him that the VoP is already balanced by not being able to use magic items and haveing to use up two feats along with donating all earned gold to a charitable cause.

Also heres my character as I think hes supposed to be. Not sure where most of my feats and special abilities were supposed to go but i did the best I could.
Class and Level - Monk 12
Race - Buoman(sp?)

STR - 12
DEX - 23
CON - 12
INT - 11
WIS - 20
CHA - 6

HP - 90
AC - 34 6 from dexterity 1 natural(VoP) 2 deflection(VoP) 15(misc)
misc armor is 5 from Wisdom 8 from the AC bonus due to VoP and 2 from being a lvl 12 monk

Speed - 70
Damage reduction 5/magic
Touch - 33?
Flat Footed - 34?
Initiative - 6

Fortitude - 10 8 base 1 from CON and 1 from VoP
Reflex - 15 8 Base 6 from ability score
Will - 14 8 Base 5 from ability score
Base Attack - 9
Grapple - 10

-Attacks-
Unarmed
Attack Bonus 17/12 Damage 3d6 + 3 Critical 20x2
Greater Flurry of Blows
Attack Bonus 17/17/17/12 Damage 3d6 + 3 Critical 20x2

Skills-
Not going to bother

-Feats-
Stunning Fist
Combat Reflexes
Improved Disarm
Weapon Finesse(unarmed)
Dodge
Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
Servant of the Heavens
Nymph's Kiss
Nimbus of Light
Holy Radiance
Sanctify Natural Attack
Improved Natural Attack(unarmed)
Stigmata

-Special Abilities-
Low Light Vision
Greater Flurry of Blows
Improved Unarmed
Improved Evasion
Still Mind
Ki Strike(lawful)
Slowfall 60ft
Purity of Body
Wholeness of Body
Exalted Strike +2
AC Bonus +8
Natural Armor +1
Mind Shielding
Ability Score Enhancement +4/+2(dexterity and wisdom)
Deflection +2
Greater Sustenance
Endure Elements
Resistance +1
Diamond Body
Abundant Step

*edited*
i just read the last post before this and i would like to mention that i met all the requirements to becomeing a saint except the whole cant be an outsider thing. I was mad at the book for that one since it said nothing about that in the requirements but it said it in the dexcreption of the benifits. Smashed my hopes and dreams it did.

 

[Sejs]

Welcome to the boards, sorry to hear about your situation.

First off, to be honest, my initial inclination would be just to roll with this one and let your DM be unreasonable without a fight. And do bear in mind that a +4 LA out of the blue based on rubber math is indeed unreasonable. Personally I'd tell the DM that alright, you want VoP gone, it's gone. Then calculate out what an equivalent character without VoP would have at your level, magic items included, hand-wave the changeover from VoP-ed to VoP-less, and move on.

If you want to argue it, and I could understand why you might, then the first step is to have the DM show his math. A +4 LA is ... well it's huge, and part of the problem with VoP, part of why it doesn't carry a level adjustment, is that if you screw up, you lose everything and there's no getting it back. If you're paying a level adjustment, essentially what your DM is saying is that restriction no longer applies. No LA, but you can blow the Vow and get hosed, or pay the LA and basically remove those contstraints because they've been accounted for in another way.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yeah, there IS that little clause about "if you violate" the Vow, then POOF its all gone with no replacements for all the feats & abilities.

That's harsh enough.

 

[DM_Matt]

You are powerful because you have extremely high Wis and Dex scores and insane HP, neither of which are Vow issues. How are your HP so high? They are near maximum. Your average HP assuming max at L1 should be 8+11[(8+1)/2])+12 = 69.5, and a range of 31 - 108, but you have 90.


Otherwise, you are hard to hit but do not have a great Bab and dont do THAT much dmg, Your main advantages are that those high scores that also apply to your AC AND Stunning Fist DC. Even still, if you hit with all your attacks,you only do as much damage (to one target) as the party mage can do with an empowered fireball.

Also, even if your equiptment was four levels ahead, EQ is not your entire power. Four elvels of equotment is worth far less than four entire levels. Also, this equiptment is chosen for you. Other characters that may have less equiptment, depending ont he campaign, may have the opportunity to have a more effective set of items.

 

[Eloi]

The Monk is, in my opinion, the best match for the Vow of Poverty, and that Vow goes a long way towards making a Monk capable of really getting into the thick of things without hogging the magic items to do so.

In fact, the DM's job gets easier, because he no longer has to think about making sure the Monk gets something nice. It'll all be moot - the Monk's share of the treasure is a cash amount, that gets poured straight into the Church coffers and never seen again. (Yes, we figure out how much the magic treasure is worth, and we buy out the Monk's share first so he can lead the party's groaning burro [not his, he hasn't got one] away to the Church for unloading.)

The fact that your Monk cannot and will not have magic items makes computing so simple of just how tough your foes need to be.. so very simple. You can't even use a Ring of Wishes. The DM is free to taunt you with such things, and you can't budge.

Unfortunately, as far as your DM goes, if he's ticked about your nice AC bonus and splendid rack of Exalted feats, he does get to say what is and what is not ok. If you spend character-level-appropriate amounts of gold to equip yourself, your armor class is coming down, and you'll need to obtain a magic weapon for those times nothing less than magic will do. (You can probably wait on buying one, though.) 88,000 gold at 12th level won't replace the neat stat boosts, but you may be able to improve your Wisdom and Strength enough to partially compensate, and then perhaps bracers to cover the gap. You'll be able to afford to have Enlarge cast permanently on you, if you like, and Greater Magic Fang (go find a level 20 Druid caster, if you can). Nab a Ring of Invisibility for 20k, and you should be kind of ok.

Good luck with that - I hope your GM reconsiders. Have your list of purchases ready to go in case he doesn't, though.