Vow of Poverty Help

[Doctor Shaft]

Eh, I don't even like VoP for roleplaying reasons. To say that a deity can give you power just because you eschew all material possessions is kind of silly. If that's the case, why don't a bunch of demons with evil deities just go and do the same thing? Eschew all their material possessions and become even more super-powerful. They won't even need the magic items because that stuff is already built into them.

It's a really dubious roleplaying mechanism, especially in a world with multiple deities. One deity over all... okay, I can see it working. But several? It wouldn't even make sense for the other side not to imitate such a power. The benefits are just obnoxious, at best.

But that's neither here or there. I'd re-roll the character. It's not a matter of soundly arguing for your character's abilities. It's more of, "Is my character pissing off the rest of the group." Just because you can reason why your half-orc cross-dresses as a female dwarf at night time, doesn't mean he should be played in the campaign. Talk it over peaceably, but if the GM isn't budging, just retool the monk so he's less annoying.

You already gave the self-description of being a really kick-butt monk. I love kick-butt monks too. They're the only types of characters I really enjoy playing. But if he's hogging all the fun, I probably shouldn't be playing him. Even if it does hurt to give him up.

 

[ogreific]

Ok after reading all the posts maybe I should give a little more info about the group and our campaign were in. First off were doing the War of the Spider Queen campaign, and we have four players in the group. We have a Ninja, a Kineticisist(sp?), an Iajutso(sp?) master, and a Monk (which is me). The Kineticisist and Iajuto Master have both died and they were also doing mad crazy damage as well, more than I was. And the only reason the Ninja and I have survived is because the Ninja has his Ghost Step and I have my high AC.

Now the Kinetisist became a fighter and the Iajutso Master became a Bard. The Ninja is still the Ninja and he is doing pretty damn well since he hardly gets attacked to begin with and I hardly get hurt because of my AC and I have become the primary damage dealer as well since the fighter hasn’t found any weapons that he can use yet> I think that here is where The DM got a little irritated since not only has the Fighter not gotten any good magic weapons the poor Bard suffered from a negative level trap and went down to level 5 from it.

The only reason I can get away with arguing with the DM is because he is my best friend, and the only reason that I am arguing is because this campaign is said to be really long especially with the pace that we are going in. But I think I have a few good arguments to make him think about it. Maybe not enough to change his mind, but enough to make him think about it.

 

[beepeearr]

In the games I've run I've really only seen Vow of Poverty as being particularly powerful when played by a Monk. You might want to ask your DM to look at Vow of Poverty combined with other classes first before making his decision. Keep in mind by playing a Monk with vow of Poverty, you must be good, lawful, and poor, break the good or poor restiction and you lose all of your vow of poverty benefits. A single evil act can cause your character to lose everything. Also you might want to point out that the rest of your party is not supposed to get your share of the treasure if he is doing this.

 

[der_kluge]

I think the mods are slipping. Shouldn't this be in the rules forum?

 

[domino]

Not really. It's not a question about the rules, so much as about a ruling that is not related to RAW.

That said, I do think that a +4 LA is nuts. And, if you want to try to argue it, try this tactic.

He said that the stuff given by VoP equals a +4 LA. But that's a +4 LA for characters that can also have equipment on top of that. This effectively replaces ALL your gear. If he broke down the LA on the basis of the gold that stuff would cost, ask him to compare that will the gold value of a same level character.

And don't let him say "it's part of the PC, so it's 5 times more valuable, or whatever." Because again, it supplants, and doesn't enhance the equipment.

I might see a +1 LA. But +4 is insane.

 

[Anax]

Eh, I don't even like VoP for roleplaying reasons. To say that a deity can give you power just because you eschew all material possessions is kind of silly. If that's the case, why don't a bunch of demons with evil deities just go and do the same thing? Eschew all their material possessions and become even more super-powerful. They won't even need the magic items because that stuff is already built into them.

Well, it depends on how you play it.

My character acquired the Vow of Poverty through a story arc where she had a very troubling mental breakdown. While on the one hand, the followers of Zuoken believe that one should achieve perfection of mind and body, they do give training in exotic weapons styles and the like. Still, using weapons doesn't seem appropriate for someone who's seeking personal perfection. In addition, my character is a halfling, and she was very much stuck on the thought that she needed her special tools to succeed.

Well, the way I saw it, I could only imagine her either coming to a point where she gave up this fear that was holding her back, or gave into it completely and began grasping for power in any way she could. So, I talked it over with the DM, and we worked out a story arc in which she started down that slide to the path of evil, but ended up realizing the danger before it was too late.

In order to protect herself from temptation, she made a vow to give up all of her material wealth. In fact, she used fire to destroy everything but her clothing that night. She then spent the entire next level with no items and no vow of poverty benefits.

At the end of that time, she began to see the seeds of new power. Not power granted by the gods, but power granted by the faith she had recovered in herself. She had cast off her possessions, and while things were tough at times, she survived, and did good. Now, she finds an inner strength from her commitment to good and to self-perfection. While Zuoken and Xan Yae are neutral, she believes that they understand this commitment to good as being a form of reaching towards perfection: Ann is essentially good, and to give up on that would be to deny what she is.


So, these powers are not granted by the gods, but by her service of good, and her belief in her own strength. And it is not the gods that would strip her of her powers, but her own self-doubt.


If she were ever to give in to the temptation to use artifice to supplement her own powers, however, it would be an indication of her failure. She would lose the powers that her insight has given her... and, I believe, become fairly rapidly the dark image of what she is now: trying forever to regain what she has lost, having forgotten that it is only by forsaking her desire that she was able to achieve so much.



Mechanically, this model suggests that the exalted bonus feats that Ann has taken have generally been less flashy. I do expect that she will end up being able to glow with a holy radiance, but that's about it. And that's at level 18, if I recall right (if we don't end the campaign before then.) Her bonuses to attributes went first into charisma, then wisdom, then constitution. Dexterity is likely next, but strength is not an option: she is pursuing her own form of perfection... it is the belief that she was not strong enough that got her into trouble. Now, she realizes that she need not be strong at all.


Anyway: I think this shows that VoP can be done in an appropriate role-playing way. It's certainly been an interesting voyage for my character, who almost descended into madness, and now finds herself sometimes adrift in a world where even the forces of good are frequently willing to do great evil in the name of survival. (Our best guess is that the head of the Irongate secret-service analogue is lawful evil. At best he might be lawful neutral. He pretty much always acts in the best interest of Irongate--but his tactics, while highly effective, are troubling.)


I do think that big things like VoP work better when they're tied in with a complex storyline--and preferably an in-play storyline and not a backstory. This makes the whole effect much more tangible, and not just a switch you've turned on for your character. In the future, I suspect I'll aim for this approach with all prestige classes for my characters as well.