VP/WP in D&D?

[mmadsen]

For those unaware of the Star Wars VP/WP system, how does it work?

Each character gets Wound Points equal to Con. Then each character gets Vitality Points equal to their normal D&D Hit Points. Vitality Points are "missed me" Hit Points; only Wound Points represent serious physical damage.

Vitality Points "heal" quickly; Wound Points don't. Notice how this gets around the need for plentiful magical healing. Vitality Points are also used to power Force powers in Star Wars.

Critical Hits, instead of doing extra damage, do damage straight to Wound Points. I suppose this goes from "threatening" to "downright lethal" at higher levels, once the monsters dole out more than 10 points of damage per hit (since Con doesn't progress much, if at all, while Hit Points continue to increase significantly).

 

[Quickbeam]

To Josh & mmadsen:
I read your posts and the d20 ME page regarding the VP/WP system, but I don't fully gather how VP points "heal" quickly. Will you clarify this for me? So that I'm clear -- I understand everything else regarding this system, but didn't notice rules for recovering VP (or WP) points beyond magical healing. Thus, a party medic or healer would still be vital...although I'm sure I've missed some crucial info.

Also, thanks for the answers thus far. I promise to stop hijacking this thread and post something more on topic next time.

 

[King_Stannis]

Each character gets Wound Points equal to Con. Then each character gets Vitality Points equal to their normal D&D Hit Points. Vitality Points are "missed me" Hit Points; only Wound Points represent serious physical damage.

Vitality Points "heal" quickly; Wound Points don't. Notice how this gets around the need for plentiful magical healing. Vitality Points are also used to power Force powers in Star Wars.

Critical Hits, instead of doing extra damage, do damage straight to Wound Points. I suppose this goes from "threatening" to "downright lethal" at higher levels, once the monsters dole out more than 10 points of damage per hit (since Con doesn't progress much, if at all, while Hit Points continue to increase significantly).

i've just come to the realization that the VP system is kind of a big lie. when you drop a nice hit on someone and do 30 point of VP damage, you've really only earned the right to do future damage. takes some of the joy out of it, if it's described properly.

it's, as you say, a "missed me" hit. no real point to make, just something i realized. for those wanting a more realistic system using the same hp mechanic for d&d, try the grim'n'gritty system by ken hood.

 

[mmadsen]

I read your posts and the d20 ME page regarding the VP/WP system, but I don't fully gather how VP points "heal" quickly. Will you clarify this for me?

I found a web page that explains it all:

http://www.wizards.com/starwars/article.asp?rpg_sept_exerpt,2,rpg

The part you're interested in: "You recover 1 vitality point per character level per hour of rest, and 1 wound point per day of rest."

 

[hong]

It's not a lot more deadly, it just makes critical hits more dangerous. Seriously, how often are you taking critical hits anway? In my games, we don't even average a single critical hit (on either side) per game it seems.

You must not have a lot of combat then. Even without feats and magic, about 10% of all rolls will be threats, and assuming average skill, at least half of those will be crits.

And the recovery from VP/WP is quicker and works better for the pacing, which as you say, is a concern of HP as written.

But I don't know what I'd agree with what you want them for, so maybe my advice isn't worth much to you. I don't want HP to be even more over the top heroic, I want them to be less. I'd like the fact that critical hits are now much more deadly.

Oh, rest assured I'll be junking the SW method of handling crits. It just doesn't work in D&D, where armour doesn't provide DR and it's easy to have things doing 30+ points on a single hit (even without multiplying).

Basically I think it's a good method for running games where you go into dungeons, kill the monsters, and loot the treasure. Which shouldn't be surprising, since (as was said) 90-95% of the time, VP is just like hit points.

 

[El Ravager]

My DM ran a game that I played in and is currently running another one using the VP/WP rules. I have not read the SW rules in a while so I do not know if this is the case in those rules, but the way my DM did it was that in addition to using your Con score as WP, you also gained a WP each level. That kinda helped to alieviate the single crit = kill. Crits were still fairly leathal, but our group seems to roll a lot of them (our group really likes to take advanage of high crit threats - rapiers, bladed guantlets, improved crit feat, keened weapons, etc)

The current game he is running is also using the armour as damage reduction to WPs system and giving an AC bonus based on class/level just like the revised SW rules. I also intend to use this system in my upcoming Ravenloft game I am planning to run this fall. I have always felt something was lacking in the defense area of DnD combat. It didn't make much sense that PCs skill in hitting things went up, but they never became more skilled and defending themselves. In my mind, a 10th level fighter with no gear should be harder to hit than a 1st level fighter with no gear assuming that their stats are the same. I guess this is supposed to be represented in the HP as 'dodging, rolling with the punches, fatigue, etc' but it still doesn't seem right. I don't see why HP can't still represent that while also giving a slight AC bonus as PCs rise in level.



=====
El Rav

 

[Quickbeam]

mmadsen:
Thanks for the link.

hong:
I like the alternative damage system for two primary reasons:
1) It allows for faster healing time, and therefore less "wasted" time recovering after encounters. This likely means that groups will accomplish more during their sessions, which is a very good thing IMO.
2) It makes critical hits more dramatic without having to bother with various "critical effects" tables and options. My group want their critical hits to mean soemthing (even when it's against their characters), and this is a great way to portray such attacks.

Obviously I haven't playtested the VP/WP system yet, but nonetheless I can't imagine why the system wouldn't be workable if you kept keen and vorpal weapon options limited.

 

[Desdichado]

No, I'd say usually 5% of attacks will be crit threats (most weapons are on a 20 only threat range) and not much more than 25% of those will actually be crits (unless my experience is off because I haven't played enough high level.) That means that 1.25% of your attacks will be criticals. Unless you're having significantly more than 100 attacks per session, you're not going to have more than about 1 critical hit per session. You've got to have a lot of combat, or long sessions for that to happen.

hong:
Oh, rest assured I'll be junking the SW method of handling crits. It just doesn't work in D&D, where armour doesn't provide DR and it's easy to have things doing 30+ points on a single hit (even without multiplying).

I don't see how that matters. Armor didn't provide DR in Star Wars until the Revised book came out either.

 

[hong]

2) It makes critical hits more dramatic without having to bother with various "critical effects" tables and options. My group want their critical hits to mean soemthing (even when it's against their characters), and this is a great way to portray such attacks.

I dunno. As far as the people I've played with go, dishing out 40 points of damage on a single hit definitely means something. All the more when the guy on the other end only has 20 hp to start with.

Obviously I haven't playtested the VP/WP system yet, but nonetheless I can't imagine why the system wouldn't be workable if you kept keen and vorpal weapon options limited.

Like I said above, I would actually be junking the SW method of handling crits. I don't want a guaranteed one-shot kill system. I want a system that _facilitates_ gratuitous violence, rather than curbing it.

 

[Tonguez]

i've just come to the realization that the VP system is kind of a big lie. when you drop a nice hit on someone and do 30 point of VP damage, you've really only earned the right to do future damage. takes some of the joy out of it, if it's described properly.

No HP is the big lie as it combines the 'miss me' factor with the 'Ouch that hurt' factor and the 'Bleeding all over the floor' factor all into one number.

VP= fatigue and ability to 'feel the burn' and love it
WP= blood loss from serious injury (through crits and fatigue)

I like using the VP system in DnD because I like my games bloody and lethal
I'd recommend applying a DR to WP ystem however

Overall VP is great at low levels (a Wizard with Con 10 now effectively has HP14 (VP4/WP10)