D&D 5E Vs Vecna battle simulations.

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Playing a little too fast and loose with Hiding in Combat, IMO...

Nevertheless, this is a fun showdown to observe!
You think so? I mean, I have an ability that's actually called "camouflage" AND the skulker feat, AND I've been out of Line-of-Sight whenever I have used my bonus action to hide.
 

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Tutara

Adventurer
Skulker has no effect on whether he can see you or not.

I'm not sure what camoflage is - could you explain?
As soon as you step into his line of sight, he can see you. You aren't invisible, after all, and he literally saw you duck behind a pillar.

I appreciate that you might rule that you have a split second before he sees you to make your attack. I would not rule that way. A different DM might,
 

You think so? I mean, I have an ability that's actually called "camouflage" AND the skulker feat, AND I've been out of Line-of-Sight whenever I have used my bonus action to hide.
As a DM, I'd invoke the rule that:
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."

Vecna is no slouch. After Malek brings the sneak attack pain from his camo-skulker-hiding trick once, Vecna'd be a little more alert and likely notice the rogue moving behind a pillar (or the rogue being obscured by a pillar by virtue of Vecna's own teleport). Unless, perhaps, there are some other distractions, it's just not guaranteed that the conditions are such that the DM will grant the rogue a Hide roll every turn. Put another way, if Vecna is familiar with the tactic that Malek is going to pop out from behind a particular pillar, Malek is not really hidden, IMO. Other DMs might rule differently, of course.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
As a DM, I'd invoke the rule that:
"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."

Vecna is no slouch. After Malek brings the sneak attack pain from his camo-skulker-hiding trick once, Vecna'd be a little more alert and likely notice the rogue moving behind a pillar (or the rogue being obscured by a pillar by virtue of Vecna's own teleport). Unless, perhaps, there are some other distractions, it's just not guaranteed that the conditions are such that the DM will grant the rogue a Hide roll every turn. Put another way, if Vecna is familiar with the tactic that Malek is going to pop out from behind a particular pillar, Malek is not really hidden, IMO. Other DMs might rule differently, of course.
The rogue is balanced around the assumption of being able to sneak attack once each round, so this seems fine to me.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I'm not sure what camoflage is - could you explain?
Here it is from MotM:

1655506760753.png

and the "older version" from SCAG:
1655506821684.png


"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen."
I would agree in general, but in these cases he is not "approaching" after being hidden, he is attacking at range. Crawford even said that a hidden creature can move 5 feet "into the open" to make the attack and still have advantage.

Given the feature's Malek has (racial camouflage, expertise in stealth, reliable talent) and cunning action to Hide, and that he has enough movement each time to move out of LoS, and then pop back out... I think Hiding is okay--after all, this is what he is good at.

Now, yes, Vecna might have seen him move behind a pillar, but he doesn't know which side he'll pop back out from? So at best 50/50, you know? With 3 other PCs, I would say Vecna is "distracted". YMMV, of course. :)
 

Tutara

Adventurer
I don't think any of that applies here - other than getting advantage. A rogue is absolutely balanced around getting sneak attack each round - not being able to hide or getting advantage every round. But if the rogue's companions aren't taking the hits to allow the rogue to get that sneak attack - or the monster is too sneaky or well positioned to allow the rogue to get that sneak attack - then the rogue doesn't get to sneak attack. Also, Vecna is a genius, so playing him like a chump who doesn't have object permenance seems weird.

Of course, I am all on board with a DM handwaving it because it sucks to lose your main damage output every turn.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Egar's Turn:
  1. Egar takes 7 and 14 necrotic damage from Afterthought's effects, reduced to 3 and 7 due to aura of life.
  2. Egar rolls two DC 20 CON saves: getting a 20 (11+9) and 29 (20+9), ending the effect from Afterthought.
  3. Egar moves 30 feet closer to Vecna, next to Leon.
  4. Egar uses his Wish spell to cast Antimagic Field, getting himself, Leon, and Vecna in the field.
  5. aura of life is suppressed while in field.
  6. Vecna has no reaction so cannot attempt to counterspell.
Egar's current Spell Slots: 4 / 2 / 3 / 3 / 3 / 1 / 2 / - / - (Wish cast).

1655511312196.png

(Note: all of Vecna's features are magical and will no longer work while he is in the antimagic field. Afterthought is just a normal dagger now.)

Since Vecna is going next, if he attempt to escape the grapple as his Action, I will use my last Portent die (the 6), giving him a total of 9 for his Dexterity (Acrobatics) check or an 8 for his Strength (Athletics) check.

1655509360148.png


Knowing their weapons are no longer magical while in the Field, Egar calls to the others, "Break out the torches, boys, it's barbeque time!" 🔥

It is now Vecna's Turn.
 
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MarkB

Legend
Here it is from MotM:

View attachment 251306
and the "older version" from SCAG:
View attachment 251307


I would agree in general, but in these cases he is not "approaching" after being hidden, he is attacking at range. Crawford even said that a hidden creature can move 5 feet "into the open" to make the attack and still have advantage.

Given the feature's Malek has (racial camouflage, expertise in stealth, reliable talent) and cunning action to Hide, and that he has enough movement each time to move out of LoS, and then pop back out... I think Hiding is okay--after all, this is what he is good at.

Now, yes, Vecna might have seen him move behind a pillar, but he doesn't know which side he'll pop back out from? So at best 50/50, you know? With 3 other PCs, I would say Vecna is "distracted". YMMV, of course. :)
This is why I suggested, in all seriousness, that Vecna should have changed tactics after the first time or two he got sneak attacked. Skulking behind pillars has done him zero favours in this fight - it's allowed the rogue to hide easily, and the wizard to use his readied-spell trick to avoid being counterspelled. By now Vecna should have been sticking like glue to Malek so that he doesn't get to start each turn out of sight.
 

Tutara

Adventurer
This is why I suggested, in all seriousness, that Vecna should have changed tactics after the first time or two he got sneak attacked. Skulking behind pillars has done him zero favours in this fight - it's allowed the rogue to hide easily, and the wizard to use his readied-spell trick to avoid being counterspelled. By now Vecna should have been sticking like glue to Malek so that he doesn't get to start each turn out of sight.
I'd also say that he should have realised that Malek doesn't have multiple attacks, so he is better not using his reaction when hit by Malek when he could make the monk cry by zipping away and denying him his flurry. Or just focusing down Egar the irritating reaction caster. (Vecna prepares an action: when I see Egar, I use Rotten Fate on him)

Of course, it is easy to be a backseat driver!
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
This is why I suggested, in all seriousness, that Vecna should have changed tactics after the first time or two he got sneak attacked. Skulking behind pillars has done him zero favours in this fight - it's allowed the rogue to hide easily, and the wizard to use his readied-spell trick to avoid being counterspelled. By now Vecna should have been sticking like glue to Malek so that he doesn't get to start each turn out of sight.
What is really screwing Vecna is the pillars TBH....

That is what is allowing Malek and Egar to act as they do.

And while Vecna could focus on Malek, that would leave him vulnerable to the other three. So far he basically spend his first turn focusing on Hjalman and his second on Egar.

when he could make the monk cry by zipping away and denying him his flurry.
He did to that the first time, after Hjalman's first unarmed strike he teleported away and hit him with the damage for it. It forced Hjalman to use his Step of the Wind instead of Flurry of Blows.

Hjalman's next sequence already had Flurry of Blows for the first hit, thus denying Vecna further reactions (our current state).

Or just focusing down Egar the irritating reaction caster. (Vecna prepares an action: when I see Egar, I use Rotten Fate on him)
He did, sort of, the second turn. And trust me, it hurt Egar a lot... thankfully the aura of life spared him some of that damage...

The point is if Vecna focuses on one, he is allowing the others more leeway. 🤷‍♂️

The battle can, of course, be played out in numerous ways.

Of course, it is easy to be a backseat driver!
LOL sure is! But we've still seen Vecna foil attempts already (Hjalman 1st round and Leon 2nd round)... and put a lot of hurt on two PCs as well.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Grid-map Question:

Antimagic Field is a 10-foot radius (self), so should that be a 4x4 circle (2 square radius) or extend two squares beyond Egar (as shown above)???

I checked different sites before posting and saw it both ways. :(

Either way it will get Vecna, but I am curious as to how others would rule it, because originally I was not going to move so close to Leon...
 
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I personally got Vecna out in the open because he wanted to keep an eye on the Caster so he could counterspell rather than run away again, as the pillars were being more of a downside. I was late getting here, but I did not want him to teleport away so he would be able to react to what Egar was doing.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
It shows two rolls just incase there is Advantage or Disadvantage. You just ignore the second roll.
Seems a weird way to do things, but ok.

I just remember the first round you had Vecna attack Hjalman with Afterthought and said "with advantage", when there was no source of advantage I could see, so it was confusing. :(

Vecna then makes two Afterthought attacks with advantage.
 

Seems a weird way to do things, but ok.

I just remember the first round you had Vecna attack Hjalman with Afterthought and said "with advantage", when there was no source of advantage I could see, so it was confusing. :(
Hjalman was frightened. But I just checked right now, and realized that does not give Advantage so that was my mistake.

More importantly. Somehow in this turn Vecna lost a reaction. During Leon's turn you said Vecna has one reaction remaining, when he has two after that. And I would not have used one in response to Malek. Like this entire turn should not have gone the way it did because Vecna somehow lost a reaction.
 
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Hmm... I'll review the rounds and see if I can find the mistake.


It turns out it is better that he did since due to Hjalman's FoB he cannot take reactions now anyway. 🤷‍♂️
But Hjalman would have not gotten the Furry of Blows off, cause Vecna would have had two reactions. You just said that Vecna had one reaction left after Leon's turn used it on Malek's turn, then said he had none left for Hjalman's turn.
 


(Note: all of Vecna's features are magical and will no longer work while he is in the antimagic field. Afterthought is just a normal dagger now.)
I'm not at all certain that's true, given the Sage Advice on the subject. From the Compendium:

Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:
• Is it a magic item?
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description?
• Is it a spell attack?
• Does its description say it’s magical?

By this ruling, it appears Afterthought, Rotten Fate and Spellcasting are "magical," but Flight of the Damned, Vile Teleport, Dread Counterspell and Fell Rebuke are not.

:rolleyes:
 

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